http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#5f6d013e-dabb-4c89-8065-6c83e375a1e6 ssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..... don't wake him up, Loki........ Tue, 17 Nov 2009 03:50:30 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#5f6d013e-dabb-4c89-8065-6c83e375a1e6 grouchosuave 2009-11-17T03:50:30Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#ac6ac440-c457-4c53-ad0d-c8041994f0bf %$#@%$#@%$# I'm gonna leave again, and I'm taking my ball with me Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:35:39 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#ac6ac440-c457-4c53-ad0d-c8041994f0bf Lokifreign 2009-11-17T02:35:39Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#4374870e-0bcf-4ffc-a633-6c3c78bdcae5 One thing to keep in mind is that, in addition to be an imbecile with a poor vocabulary, J is also a proud and happy liar. Don't assume that what he imputes to another individual has any basis in fact at all. Recall that he is insane, evil, and stupid, before buying into one of his many idiotically weak, irrational, and fallacious frames, or assuming that his reportage is something other than the masturbatory ravings of a mentally stunted misogynistic lunatic. For a claimant to the title of "absolutist", the fool is amazingly willing to engage in insubstantially relativistic equivocations. Either frame (absolute or relative) when applied to the exclusion of simple and self-evident realities, is a trap for lesser minds such as JL here. Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:04:41 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#4374870e-0bcf-4ffc-a633-6c3c78bdcae5 Lokifreign 2009-11-17T02:04:41Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#ba9da632-304a-49b5-a4b2-f48c6843d0c4 G'REG POSTED : er, I'm still not following you. you call it "fun" if it's bondage and swinging? but then call it "soulless trash"? and then call fellatio "monstrous filth"? are you being sarchastic? or is this what you really like? RESPONSE: I am earnestly against those activities for they are VAPID, TAWDRY , trash based on lassitude and abandon . I used the term 'fun' with a note of disdain . G'REG POSTED : and, again, ANY liberation is good. RESPONSE: Liberation of the phallus is a superficial , vapid form of liberation . Tacky, puerile .... G'REG POSTED :IF someone's phallus is in need of liberation, then what could be wrong with someone gaining a bit of freedom, even in the bedroom? RESPONSE: That's a waste of freedom . Freedom should be set towards mindfulness , towards fostering a more contemplative disposition in the mind . Freedom of the phallus fosters a lack of mindfullness ..a lassitude and abandon contrary to contemplative thinking . Liberation of the phallus is a mundane , crass waste of freedom . G'REG POSTED : It seems that kids from the suburbs aren't allowed to have sex in your opinion? that's rather oppressive of you! wtf? RESPONSE: It is especially repulsive that financially well to do kids from affluent suburbs get involved in liberated sex . They are like unto decadent , spoiled hipsters who piss away the greater financial opportunity given them , by pissing it away on liberated sex . MTV-era , hipsters the kind of spoiled creeps that remind one of wealthy youngsters in the 1920's, who apparently liked to "go slumming" for kicks at poor nightclubs and act like gawking tourists make a spectacle of themselves, and then go back home to their rich communities and never give the poor people much of anything . Sex positive hipsters/ bright young thing bourgeous neo-yuppies of the MTV-era...the kind of creeps that might identify with the characters in goofy movies like 'Cchasing Amy' or that even more disgusting movie , 'Lie With Me' ...the kind of young people that might be given to bandy about the word "existential" as a catch -all term , out of context . The phrase careless flower of youth comes to mind. Those suburban sexually liberated young people are scions of affluence , hipsters in the careless flower of their youth . Dilettantes playing dress up---decadent spoiled hipsters . GREG POSTED : And you also seem to be making blanket statements about all the youth from the suburbs. I don't know if you have been outside of Florida in the past 20 years, but the suburbs in the rest of the US are massive and sprawl out for 30-40 miles or more in some cities. That's a LOT of people, and to somehow make assumptions about everyone living in them is a bit crass, doncha think? RESPONSE: No. Referring to the middle class and upper middle class suburbs . GREG POSTED :and what about the poor people that are "sexual libertines"? are they "cool" because they're poor? wha? RESPONSE: Though some sexual ctivities such as rape are inexcusible for someone with any income level, one should show some more leniency for people who are poor and always have been when they get involved in superfical trash like liberated sex ...though we should still try to exhort them to stop liking such activities . The poor haven't often had the educational opportunities that the sexually libertine hipsters from decadent suburbia have . Furthermore, they are often beset by a lot more physical privations in the lifeworlds they come from due to the viscissitudes of the way the system is set up to marginalize poor working class people. Hence we should cut the poor more slack wehn they get involved in casaul sex ...to some extent Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:36:15 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#ba9da632-304a-49b5-a4b2-f48c6843d0c4 Jason Leary 2009-10-20T16:36:15Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#29bf5929-dacb-4dfd-8bdc-8aaa45a81e0e G'REG POSTED : er, I'm still not following you. you call it "fun" if it's bondage and swinging? but then call it "soulless trash"? and then call fellatio "monstrous filth"? are you being sarchastic? or is this what you really like? RESPONSE: I am earnestly against those activities for they are VAPID, TAWDRY , trash based on lassitude and abandon . I used the term 'fun' with a note of disdain . G'REG POSTED : and, again, ANY liberation is good. RESPONSE: Liberation of the phallus is a superficial , vapid form of liberation . Tacky, puerile .... G'REG POSTED :IF someone's phallus is in need of liberation, then what could be wrong with someone gaining a bit of freedom, even in the bedroom? RESPONSE: That's a waste of freedom . Freedom should be set towards mindfulness , towards fostering a more contemplative disposition in the mind . Freedom of the phallus fosters a lack of mindfullness ..a lassitude and abandon contrary to contemplative thinking . Liberation of the phallus is a mundane , crass waste of freedom . G'REG POSTED : It seems that kids from the suburbs aren't allowed to have sex in your opinion? that's rather oppressive of you! wtf? RESPONSE: It is especially repulsive that financially well to do kids from affluent suburbs get involved in liberated sex . They are like unto decadent , spoiled hipsters who piss away the greater financial opportunity given them , by pissing it away on liberated sex . MTV-era , hipsters the kind of spoiled creeps that remind one of wealthy youngsters in the 1920's, who apparently liked to "go slumming" for kicks at poor nightclubs and act like gawking tourists make a spectacle of themselves, and then go back home to their rich communities and never give the poor people much of anything . Sex positive hipsters/ bright young thing bourgeous neo-yuppies of the MTV-era...the kind of creeps that might identify with the characters in goofy movies like 'Cchasing Amy' or that even more disgusting movie , 'Lie With Me' ...the kind of young people that might be given to bandy about the word "existential" as a catch -all term , out of context . The phrase careless flower of youth comes to mind. Those suburban sexually liberated young people are scions of affluence , hipsters in the careless flower of their youth . Dilettantes playing dress up---decadent spoiled hipsters . GREG POSTED : And you also seem to be making blanket statements about all the youth from the suburbs. I don't know if you have been outside of Florida in the past 20 years, but the suburbs in the rest of the US are massive and sprawl out for 30-40 miles or more in some cities. That's a LOT of people, and to somehow make assumptions about everyone living in them is a bit crass, doncha think? RESPONSE: No. Referring to the middle class and upper middle class suburbs . GREG POSTED :and what about the poor people that are "sexual libertines"? are they "cool" because they're poor? wha? RESPONSE: Though some sexual ctivities such as rape are inexcusible for someone with any income level, one should show some more leniency for people who are poor and always have been when they get involved in superfical trash like liberated sex ...though we should still try to exhort them to stop liking such activities . The poor haven't often had the educational opportunities that the sexually libertine hipsters from decadent suburbia have . Furthermore, they are often beset by a lot more physical privations in the lifeworlds they come from due to the viscissitudes of the way the system is set up to marginalize poor working class people. Hence we should cut the poor more slack wehn they get involved in casaul sex ...to some extent . Sun, 18 Oct 2009 00:52:21 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#29bf5929-dacb-4dfd-8bdc-8aaa45a81e0e Jason Leary 2009-10-18T00:52:21Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#091ae280-cc8c-4f86-9741-2f2336e2b024 er, I'm still not following you. you call it "fun" if it's bondage and swinging? but then call it "soulless trash"? and then call fellatio "monstrous filth"? are you being sarchastic? or is this what you really like? and, again, ANY liberation is good. IF someone's phallus is in need of liberation, then what could be wrong with someone gaining a bit of freedom, even in the bedroom? It seems that kids from the suburbs aren't allowed to have sex in your opinion? that's rather oppressive of you! wtf? And you also seem to be making blanket statements about all the youth from the suburbs. I don't know if you have been outside of Florida in the past 20 years, but the suburbs in the rest of the US are massive and sprawl out for 30-40 miles or more in some cities. That's a LOT of people, and to somehow make assumptions about everyone living in them is a bit crass, doncha think? and what about the poor people that are "sexual libertines"? are they "cool" because they're poor? wha? Fri, 16 Oct 2009 19:06:21 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#091ae280-cc8c-4f86-9741-2f2336e2b024 g'reg 2009-10-16T19:06:21Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#e50c0551-bb93-4d14-8901-c8938ef0959e Hey Jason, If you don't have some debate to offer to the topic, and can only insult and throw logical fallacies about left and right, anyone with two brain cells to rub together is not likely to take you that seriously. How about you wow us with a post that doesn't make personal attacks or use tons of logical fallacies? That might actually win some people over to your own personal anarchist beliefs. Sincerely, Evan Wed, 14 Oct 2009 22:09:28 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#e50c0551-bb93-4d14-8901-c8938ef0959e Evan 2009-10-14T22:09:28Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#2cb961a9-8476-47cf-945a-20893459a4e4 COOKIE MONSTER POSTED :And yet another post with zero argument, just spewed characterization . RESPONSE: On the contrary , I explained a dangerous equivocation done by the weird, bright young thing, postmodern hipsters from affluent suburbia ---where they equivocate sexual liberation with the completely separate liberation of other interests ---the *latter* being that which counts for something ! Calling people mentally disturbed cause they dare oppose the sacred cows of the status quo is cheap and facile ! Sat, 10 Oct 2009 06:02:37 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#2cb961a9-8476-47cf-945a-20893459a4e4 Jason Leary 2009-10-10T06:02:37Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#b1824205-9f8e-4c52-a57e-2847b3c7d55b And yet another post with zero argument, just spewed characterization. And funny that you should automatically equate sexual liberation synonymously with liberation of the PHALLUS. It's just more evidence of this endless spew being about your pathology and not about anarchism. To repeat: "Jason is anti-sex." Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:10:01 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#b1824205-9f8e-4c52-a57e-2847b3c7d55b grouchosuave 2009-10-09T18:10:01Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#3b4fe08e-7f8a-46df-bee9-8ab5fd138a65 Jason said "Liberated sex is superficial trash and kitch" G'REG POSTED : I'm not following this. what do you mean exactly by "liberated sex"? what's wrong with ANY kind of "liberation"? to me, "liberated sex" means that we rise above worrying about sex, stop fearing it, and simply, naturally have it. Maybe we should move your therapy to another tribe? RESPONSE : Liberated sex ...is sex for fun especially if it involves tawdry stuff like kinky activity bondage ...degenerate , monsterous filth like fellatio, swinging and other lurid , soulless trash . Liberating the phallus does NOT count for anything . Therefore , the liberation of the phallus should not be equivocated with important worthwhile forms of liberation like the liberation of the poor and racial minorities , workers in factories ect . The latter causes are good causes . Liberated sex is NOT a good cause ; it is mundane bourgeous, puerile trash of bright young things from affluent suburbia .The sexual libertines who have infiltrated many progressive left wing movements have done a disservice to those movements and deterred them off the right path . The sexual libertines ...REMIND ONE OF DECADENT RICH YOUNG PEOPLE WHO BACK IN THE 1920's likeed to go slumming and , hence, engage in debauchery and then go back to their affluent suburbs and never give people from the ghetto the time of day . The young libertines...the postmodernist sex positive twits (the kind that bandy about the word 'existential' as a catch all term ....diletanttes ...bright young things ...call to mind the phrase "careless flower of youth ' . Fri, 09 Oct 2009 17:38:12 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#3b4fe08e-7f8a-46df-bee9-8ab5fd138a65 Jason Leary 2009-10-09T17:38:12Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#e6b2d3bf-0ba9-4466-aad3-9fef6b13d412 I wonder what I will have for lunch tomorrow. Fri, 09 Oct 2009 00:31:36 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#e6b2d3bf-0ba9-4466-aad3-9fef6b13d412 Tedster 2009-10-09T00:31:36Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#dfc5787c-2ef0-44ab-a7e0-050ca00b9a1a G'reg POSTED : if you understand anything about robert anton wilson and that quotation, it's that anyone that is so fully committed to any belief immediately closes themselves off to ANY new ideas. RESPONSE: Hogwash. Relativist MTV generation hogwash . What about the meta-belief which claims that "anyone who is fully committed to any belief immediately closes themselves off to any new ideas" ---if someone is committed to that very notion that claims that anyone who is fully committed to any belief immediately closes themselves off to ANY new ideas " does the person who supports that notion itself fully close themselves off to any new ideas . ? G 'REG POSTED : your examples evade the point entirely: who says those objects are "solid"? let's look at them on the molecular level! RESPONSE: They are solid on the macromolecular level , regardless of whether they are on the microscopic level , so you are equivocating between levels . G'REG POSTED : some radical feminist consider all sex to be "rape". so if you have sex with any consensual adult, you are a rapist. I personally disagree. therefore, "rape is wrong" is not a total "truth". to me, certain types of rape are indeed wrong. RESPONSE: That is but *some factions* of radical feminists who maintain that . You are guilty of equivocation and , hence, lazy thinking when you mix up the context of actual rape , with the redefined fake context of people who claim all sex is rape . Thus the so-called example you cite is NOT an example of the precept that 'rape is wrong' is somehow in any way relative. All rape is wrong and that is an ethical absolute . There is NO "to me " or "to us" or "to them " to ethical principles nor truth . The phrases "not wrong to me" or "wrong to me " is typical MTV generation , relativist sellout thinking ! G'reg POSTED : hate is also something that has no meaning outside of the meaning it is given. we give it meaning. my "hate" for the hollywood movies might not sit well with someone that "loves" them. that "hate" is NOT a "truth" at all. RESPONSE: That statement above is typical MTV-era relativist squish. Just because some person disagrees with a proposition does not make the proposition dubious or in any way less absolute .To claim it does is an example of what Michael Huemer called the idiots veto . It has no epistemic warrant . Just because someone has a desire to disagree with some notion, does NOT of itself mean that they have sound , plasuible grounds for disagreeing with it . Just becasuse some person has some disagreement with some proposition does not mean that the proposition which someone disagrees with is somehow doubtful . A propostion does *not* have to have unanimous acceptance to be absolutely true ! G'REG POSTED : there are no justified true beliefs. again, once you go down that path, you close yourself off to other possibilities. once you are closed off to other possibilities, you are not free. RESPONSE: That which contains internal contradictions or a fallacy in terms---- from a deductive standpoint is not even a possibility . Militant relativism =duplicity . Thu, 08 Oct 2009 21:04:56 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#dfc5787c-2ef0-44ab-a7e0-050ca00b9a1a Jason Leary 2009-10-08T21:04:56Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#4907f946-f179-419b-b12b-42276abda10d Jason is anti-sex. Thu, 08 Oct 2009 18:36:19 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#4907f946-f179-419b-b12b-42276abda10d Tedster 2009-10-08T18:36:19Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#cbc52fca-31e9-461c-89b9-166975fb9a13 Jason said "Liberated sex is superficial trash and kitch" I'm not following this. what do you mean exactly by "liberated sex"? what's wrong with ANY kind of "liberation"? to me, "liberated sex" means that we rise above worrying about sex, stop fearing it, and simply, naturally have it. Maybe we should move your therapy to another tribe? Thu, 08 Oct 2009 16:02:09 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#cbc52fca-31e9-461c-89b9-166975fb9a13 g'reg 2009-10-08T16:02:09Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#d6816f45-fa4e-4db6-b43e-bdb126eba9ca if you understand anything about robert anton wilson and that quotation, it's that anyone that is so fully committed to any belief immediately closes themselves off to ANY new ideas. your examples evade the point entirely: who says those objects are "solid"? let's look at them on the molecular level! some radical feminist consider all sex to be "rape". so if you have sex with any consensual adult, you are a rapist. I personally disagree. therefore, "rape is wrong" is not a total "truth". to me, certain types of rape are indeed wrong. hate is also something that has no meaning outside of the meaning it is given. we give it meaning. my "hate" for the hollywood movies might not sit well with someone that "loves" them. that "hate" is NOT a "truth" at all. there are no justified true beliefs. again, once you go down that path, you close yourself off to other possibilities. once you are closed off to other possibilities, you are not free. Thu, 08 Oct 2009 15:55:06 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#d6816f45-fa4e-4db6-b43e-bdb126eba9ca g'reg 2009-10-08T15:55:06Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#c086832d-ec9b-475b-974e-a8e82c3bf385 Anarchism is NOT the sort of bourgeous fare as postmodernist/relativist MTV era types twist it to be . Relativism is for sell-outs .As is liberated sex which is often a concomitnat of it . Virtue should be taken to extremes.. Flexibility , ambivalence is mediocrity. It is HIGH TIME for young progressive idealists to go all the way with esthetic and ethical idealism and NOT temper it with some squishy desire for balance...some squishy desire to respect opinions even crass , mundane opinions of those that are against idealism . To respect the opinions of those who promote conformity to the status quo is to betray anarchism ..to inwardly BETRAY in thought the idealism of anarchism . Relativists who claim to be anarchists = MTV Generation, bourgeous TRAITORS who betray anarchist causes . The relativist "conflicted" types of people are the enemy within ! Wed, 07 Oct 2009 09:55:19 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#c086832d-ec9b-475b-974e-a8e82c3bf385 Jason Leary 2009-10-07T09:55:19Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#bc748f34-8005-42d0-8b59-d33e397e04e7 Jason has some strange notions of what anarchism is. He reminds me too much about ancaps. Tue, 06 Oct 2009 02:27:31 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#bc748f34-8005-42d0-8b59-d33e397e04e7 Tedster 2009-10-06T02:27:31Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#0aef43c4-a485-4139-820d-e23413d656af I am trying to be forgiving of his incessant stalking; I'd point out that there is absolutely no reason for him to be afforded inclusion or attention in this this particular tribe. He neither understands anarchism nor represents a cogent argument with regard to it; his presence destroys every forum he participates in. I emphatically request he be removed and banned from this forum. If he isn't, I will certainly have no option other than to leave it myself. I will not tolerate the abuse and disgusting perversion of Mr Leary's presence any longer. Tue, 06 Oct 2009 02:16:44 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#0aef43c4-a485-4139-820d-e23413d656af Lokifreign 2009-10-06T02:16:44Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#7da244bd-17dc-4a28-93a6-2d8cfc8e4b6c Oh *sigh*.... As much as I like the word "quisling".... you're straddling a weird divide, Jason: to posit responses as intellectual exercise and principled argument while simultaneously indulging in personal attack. Not unheard of, but .............. well, problematic. Mon, 05 Oct 2009 22:01:06 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#7da244bd-17dc-4a28-93a6-2d8cfc8e4b6c grouchosuave 2009-10-05T22:01:06Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#9cca1edb-ac6b-495a-b01f-d15046bf0087 LOKI POSTED :As for the rest - your either/or premise is exemplary of a stunted, sheltered, childish, and myopic worldview in which must *either* conform *or* rebel. I am not the person to gently guide you to understanding, unfortunately. I am not patient, kind, nor indulgent. You appear to be incapable of understanding my words, and I am unwilling to condescend to you. RESPONSE: Yes, the decision whether to conform to the vapid superficial status quo of commercial fad and trend based society, OR *instead* to rebel against it is a SOUND and reasonable dichotomy . It is an either/or and that you don't supprt the either /or thinking shows that you, LOKI , are a postmodernist/ relativist , and NOT an anarchist . The weird, postrmodern/ relativist , MTV GENERATION bourgeous , counterfeit of faux-counterculture tendency towards ambivalence being "conflicted" / tolerating ambiguity ...makes you a traitor in thought (which is ultimately even worse than being a traitor in action) towards anarchism and all other good causes . Loki is NOT an arnarchist, in the venerable sense of authentic anarchists, like Pierre Roux at the Paris Commune , or Tolstoy or Peter Kropotkin . Instead he is another ambivalent , ambiguous pomo , dystopian , nihilist MTV-era hipster who is hardly committed in terms of ideological allegiance to any good cause . About the only sort of fare he is committed to is supporting weird , tawdry liberated sex kinks and other kitsch--that don't count for anything ! Liberated sex is the opiate of the masses . Liberated sex is superficial trash and kitch ---part of what Guy Debord called 'the society of the spectacle' . Liberation of the phallus --is superfical and jejune, and should NOT be equivocated with liberation of the mind , or liberation of the poor . The latter causes count for something . Liberation of the phallus does NOT count for anything . Postmodernists like Loki are NOT anarchists . They REJECT idealism in favor of supporting edginess and tawdry kitsch laced pop mediocrity . They like the mainstream , trendy, sex positive NEO-leftist pundits of the Bill Maher /Al Franken variety ...reek of what H.L. Mencken called 'respectible mediocrity' . They are *against* pure idealism ---preferring instead the duplicity of balance ...the mushy middle ground of mediocrity ! Thu, 01 Oct 2009 20:37:06 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#9cca1edb-ac6b-495a-b01f-d15046bf0087 Jason Leary 2009-10-01T20:37:06Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#21e5d8fd-d8fb-40b6-a0cd-b87a6da304db "RESPONSE: Cause such rules are rules of meaning itself being based on wehat Kant called conceptual containemnt ...being based on laws of very defintion . There are what philosopher Saul Kripke called 'rigid designators' that have the same identity in all possible realms , NO matter how exotic . " you have many theories, Jason, but Know very little. "RESPONSE: Hogwash . The rules of logic pre-exist and are discovered anbd expressede not constructed now rinevnted by any society . " you were brought up in a completely left-brain dominated society, so i do understand why your mind-set is robotic. "RESPONSE : That is postmodernist proaganda . There are deductive laws that are part of the essence of spirit itself . Limitations of reference make it possible for meaning to be ---without such limitation of definition , there can be NO meaning ." no, it is not propaganda, that is your own subjectivity speaking, this is my experience. not you nor any other automaton can prove my experience to be invalid, because by that flawed logic then all your experiences would be invalid. "RESPONSE: You did not say how. You used terms in a catch-all, honorific, open-ended sense (as new age types tend to do) and did NOT give definitions or supplementary arguments . " now you are generalizing and assuming, a big error. "RESPONSE: I asked you first . Stop swerving questions . " I gave you the answer already, here it is again, this is how I Know. Now you tell me how you "know". "the next phase is the phase of Knowing, of Experience, of Knowledge. one can gain alot of information, yet still Know nothing, there is a big difference between the two. Knowledge is a stage beyond Information, it is the stage of Experience, which leads to Understanding, which leads to Learning. Knowing goes even beyond ones own the subjective experiences, and into DNA, the knowledge and experiences of all ancestors within the Bloodline, this is called Instinct. Knowing goes even beyond physicalities and into the realms of Spiritual Knowledge, that which your Consciousness has come to Know thus far in its own existence. Then an even Higher Level of Knowing, it is the connection to the One, the Universal Consciousness, the Akashic Records which can be the called the Collective God that We as Individual aspects of the Universe make up, it is the Grand total of the experiences, lessons, knowledge of every Sentience in the Universe, and all Verses, and all Realities. Objective Observation can be used to gain Knowledge rather than a Subjective experience. yet both of them require for one to be in a situation to observe and experience." Thu, 17 Sep 2009 23:30:23 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#21e5d8fd-d8fb-40b6-a0cd-b87a6da304db Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-09-17T23:30:23Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#4e849bc7-98a9-42be-8e21-ad5fd25d2d44 "RESPONSE: However, it changes and evolves it cannot defy deductive laws. In no possible world can you ,say, have someone who is both married and a bachelor at the same time .The law of non-contradiction is NOT a mere natural , physical law , but instead a law of meaning of definition itself . Anyone who claims they can think of someone being both married and a bachelor at the same time is merely strobing between two incongruous thoughts . " SHADOW POSTED :you are basing that example on limitations already set by the society, RESPONSE: Hogwash . The rules of logic pre-exist and are discovered anbd expressede not constructed now rinevnted by any society . SHADOW POSTED : how do you know that in another world or parallel world they have both "contradictions"? RESPONSE: Cause such rules are rules of meaning itself being based on wehat Kant called conceptual containemnt ...being based on laws of very defintion . There are what philosopher Saul Kripke called 'rigid designators' that have the same identity in all possible realms , NO matter how exotic . SHADOW POSTED :Laws are abstractions of the mind, creations of sentience. the closer you get to the Source, the Void, The All, you will find less and less laws and rules. Spirit transcends all of these limitations, Spirit needs no definition. to define is to limit, and to be limited is to not be Free. RESPONSE : That is postmodernist proaganda . There are deductive laws that are part of the essence of spirit itself . Limitations of reference make it possible for meaning to be ---without such limitation of definition , there can be NO meaning . "RESPONSE: How do you know ? " SHADOW POSTED :i just said how, now it is you who are not "paying attention" : RESPONSE: You did not say how. You used terms in a catch-all, honorific, open-ended sense (as new age types tend to do) and did NOT give definitions or supplementary arguments . SHADOW POSTED :even the Spirit isnt absolute, because it depends on the choice of the individual consciousness to go into non-being or into eternal being. SHADOW POSTED :I could just as easily ask you, how do you know? lol RESPONSE: I asked you first . Stop swerving questions . Thu, 17 Sep 2009 22:42:17 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#4e849bc7-98a9-42be-8e21-ad5fd25d2d44 Jason Leary 2009-09-17T22:42:17Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#b8e62bbf-e31a-4e8f-b01b-2af1b09a94cd "RESPONSE: Yes, I am the same person " well then, do I feel sorry for you. you are just a bundle of routine, an automaton. you are just like another person i spoke with before in this life, practical as one could ever be, that is why Spiritual concepts just fly right over his head, just like you. do you not see it, i can feel it from the tone you take in your writing how mechanically conditioned you are. you live in a robotic society, you have become a product of it. "Truth has no path. Truth is living and, therefore, changing. Awareness is without choice, without demand, without anxiety; in that state of mind, there is perception. To know oneself is to study oneself in action with another person. Awareness has no frontier; it is giving of your whole being, without exclusion. Truth is a pathless land. When there is freedom from mechanical conditioning, there is simplicity. The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow — you are not understanding yourself." ~Krishnamurti~ "RESPONSE: However, it changes and evolves it cannot defy deductive laws. In no possible world can you ,say, have someone who is both married and a bachelor at the same time .The law of non-contradiction is NOT a mere natural , physical law , but instead a law of meaning of definition itself . Anyone who claims they can think of someone being both married and a bachelor at the same time is merely strobing between two incongruous thoughts . " you are basing that example on limitations already set by the society, how do you know that in another world or parallel world they have both "contradictions"? Laws are abstractions of the mind, creations of sentience. the closer you get to the Source, the Void, The All, you will find less and less laws and rules. Spirit transcends all of these limitations, Spirit needs no definition. to define is to limit, and to be limited is to not be Free. "RESPONSE: How do you know ? " i just said how, now it is you who are not "paying attention" : SHADOW POSTED :even the Spirit isnt absolute, because it depends on the choice of the individual consciousness to go into non-being or into eternal being. I could just as easily ask you, how do you know? lol Thu, 17 Sep 2009 19:39:22 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#b8e62bbf-e31a-4e8f-b01b-2af1b09a94cd Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-09-17T19:39:22Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#7347dfd4-f6ba-4ced-8d34-59765ed68933 So belief is NOT the death of intelligence . >>> And with that, stridency may well be the death of conversation though. Thu, 17 Sep 2009 17:04:00 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#7347dfd4-f6ba-4ced-8d34-59765ed68933 grouchosuave 2009-09-17T17:04:00Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#061b66e4-9702-4277-a20a-579baf80203c LOKIFREIGN POSTED : Let's put it on a flag: "Belief is the death of intelligence." RESPONSE : That is a slogan of quislings ! There are justified True beliefs that are NOT opinions . for example the belief that 2 solid objects plus 3 solid objects always equals 5 solid objects , that raping someone is always wrong, that hating someone because of the colour of their skin is always wrong . Those are NOT opinions, those are Truths . So belief is NOT the death of intelligence . Thu, 17 Sep 2009 16:32:23 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#061b66e4-9702-4277-a20a-579baf80203c Jason Leary 2009-09-17T16:32:23Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#4e2b7541-463f-448f-91a5-1b94dde954cc RESPONSE: Yes, one does have to beleive in absolute to keep integrity. Integrity is an affair of thiknking as much as of action. If out actions have impeccable form , if we merely do the right things , without believe that teh project the goal served by doing them is absolutely right ---then what we are about is LACKING in an integrity. If a person describes the goal they are fighting for as mere opinion, merely "right for them" or "right for us" then they *betray* the cause they are fighting for NO matter how hard they work to get petitions signed , no matter how impeccable the actions they do seem . " SHADOW POSTED :(continued from my last post) so no, belief is not needed, one can know. and I know that eventhough at the microscopic and macroscopic levels solids may seem absolute, RESPONSE: I stated that at the macroscopic level solids are absolute . Please pay attention . You were equivocating between properties present at the macroscopic level to those found at the microscopic level . SHADOW POSTED :they are not, they are two different states that are interchangeable, due to the desire of the Universe, or another force acting upon it to change the states. RESPONSE : On what grounds do you claim that ? SHADOW POSTED :even the Spirit isnt absolute, because it depends on the choice of the individual consciousness to go into non-being or into eternal being. RESPONSE: How do you know ? "You are EQUIVOCATING , Mr.Shadow, between two separate contexts / two separate levels of the same thing . " SHADOW POSTED :and you are trying to find some reason to argue, trying to find some reason to matter. RESPONSE: You have been found guilty of equivocating .Equivocating goes against dedcutive logic . It is always a wrong mode of discourse . Deductive logic is absolute . It is NOT a construct of man . Deductive logic has always existed . It pre-exists . SHADOW POSTED : look, i do not care to argue with you, im just not interested, RESPONSE : You should be interested ! SHADOW POSTED : if you want to believe in your own subjectivity that there are absolutes, well then good for you. RESPONSE: That there are absolutes is NOT based on subjectivity , instead it is based on objectivity . SHADOW POSTED : the Universe is not static, nor absolute, it is always changing evolving and advancing, RESPONSE: However, it changes and evolves it cannot defy deductive laws. In no possible world can you ,say, have someone who is both married and a bachelor at the same time .The law of non-contradiction is NOT a mere natural , physical law , but instead a law of meaning of definition itself . Anyone who claims they can think of someone being both married and a bachelor at the same time is merely strobing between two incongruous thoughts . SHADOW POSTED :and for this reason is why you see so many beautiful abstract art out in the universe in the form of galaxies, planets, creatures..ect. jason, not even you are absolute, look back upon your life and ask yourself, are you the same person you were 10 years ago?15 years ago? RESPONSE: Yes, I am the same person --though the approach to living I employ is a lot better than it was 15 yrs ago . SHADOW POSTED : the farther you go, the more you find you know so little. RESPONSE: Are you sure you know that ? Thu, 17 Sep 2009 16:25:52 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#4e2b7541-463f-448f-91a5-1b94dde954cc Jason Leary 2009-09-17T16:25:52Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#a4742ad6-0abc-4ffa-a3da-e3859039f87b "RESPONSE: Yes, one does have to beleive in absolute to keep integrity. Integrity is an affair of thiknking as much as of action. If out actions have impeccable form , if we merely do the right things , without believe that teh project the goal served by doing them is absolutely right ---then what we are about is LACKING in an integrity. If a person describes the goal they are fighting for as mere opinion, merely "right for them" or "right for us" then they *betray* the cause they are fighting for NO matter how hard they work to get petitions signed , no matter how impeccable the actions they do seem . " (continued from my last post) so no, belief is not needed, one can know. and I know that eventhough at the microscopic and macroscopic levels solids may seem absolute, they are not, they are two different states that are interchangeable, due to the desire of the Universe, or another force acting upon it to change the states. even the Spirit isnt absolute, because it depends on the choice of the individual consciousness to go into non-being or into eternal being. "You are EQUIVOCATING , Mr.Shadow, between two separate contexts / two separate levels of the same thing . " and you are trying to find some reason to argue, trying to find some reason to matter. look, i do not care to argue with you, im just not interested, if you want to believe in your own subjectivity that there are absolutes, well then good for you. the Universe is not static, nor absolute, it is always changing evolving and advancing, and for this reason is why you see so many beautiful abstract art out in the universe in the form of galaxies, planets, creatures..ect. jason, not even you are absolute, look back upon your life and ask yourself, are you the same person you were 10 years ago?15 years ago? the farther you go, the more you find you know so little. Thu, 17 Sep 2009 02:19:33 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#a4742ad6-0abc-4ffa-a3da-e3859039f87b Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-09-17T02:19:33Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#21e918f2-fb04-4997-b4b0-4aa72c87aa45 lol. there are three phases that the mind goes through: first, the realm of ideas, thoughts, and theories. where there is no faith or intuition involved, just pure thoughts with no life in them to create an animated idea, thought, or theory that leads into the next phase. then comes the realm of faith, belief, belief systems, and intuition. it is the inbetween of the realms, the sort of purgatory, yet every idea must go through this stage if it is to make it to the next. but sadly enough, most people do cannot make it past the phase of Faith and belief, and others still will not allow themselves to make their way past the first stage of ideas and theories. the next phase is the phase of Knowing, of Experience, of Knowledge. one can gain alot of information, yet still Know nothing, there is a big difference between the two. Knowledge is a stage beyond Information, it is the stage of Experience, which leads to Understanding, which leads to Learning. Knowing goes even beyond ones own the subjective experiences, and into DNA, the knowledge and experiences of all ancestors within the Bloodline, this is called Instinct. Knowing goes even beyond physicalities and into the realms of Spiritual Knowledge, that which your Consciousness has come to Know thus far in its own existence. Then an even Higher Level of Knowing, it is the connection to the One, the Universal Consciousness, the Akashic Records which can be the called the Collective God that We as Individual aspects of the Universe make up, it is the Grand total of the experiences, lessons, knowledge of every Sentience in the Universe, and all Verses, and all Realities. Objective Observation can be used to gain Knowledge rather than a Subjective experience. yet both of them require for one to be in a situation to observe and experience. Thu, 17 Sep 2009 02:06:03 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#21e918f2-fb04-4997-b4b0-4aa72c87aa45 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-09-17T02:06:03Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#19cc7290-df91-4c83-8b6f-88a5f00069de Integrity demands a belief in absolutes. Relativism ---the prattle about so-called "shades of grey" and so-called "other sides " to an issue is duplicious sellout thinking !" SHADOW POSTED :now that is sellout thinking. RESPONSE: No, relativism is sellout thinking. Ambivalent thinking is sellout thinking..duplicity/ambiguity . SHADOW POSTED :i do not need to believe in an absolute to keep my integrity, to be honorable, RESPONSE: Yes, one does have to beleive in absolute to keep integrity. Integrity is an affair of thiknking as much as of action. If out actions have impeccable form , if we merely do the right things , without believe that teh project the goal served by doing them is absolutely right ---then what we are about is LACKING in an integrity. If a person describes the goal they are fighting for as mere opinion, merely "right for them" or "right for us" then they *betray* the cause they are fighting for NO matter how hard they work to get petitions signed , no matter how impeccable the actions they do seem . SHADOW POSTED :i do it all the time. it is an expanded perception(truth) when i say that solid is not an absolute, because when you go deeper, you find that it only appears solid because of the many atoms moving at the speed of light, and the vibratory rate that the object puts out gives it its appearance. and knowing this, i still have retained my ability to decipher from what is not beneficial to a collective of sentience and myself and what is not beneficial. RESPONSE: That does NOT change that it is still absolutely solid at the macroscopic level though it may not be at the microscopic level . You are EQUIVOCATING , Mr.Shadow, between two separate contexts / two separate levels of the same thing . Shadow , the relativist / postmodernist MTV generation thinking that denies there are absolutes is bourgeous garbage and is, indeed , , sellout thinking ! Wed, 16 Sep 2009 17:25:03 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#19cc7290-df91-4c83-8b6f-88a5f00069de Jason Leary 2009-09-16T17:25:03Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#cad14f31-ff7a-46bb-9940-de34e9540708 so Jason, I implore you to go Deeper. Wed, 16 Sep 2009 00:49:57 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#cad14f31-ff7a-46bb-9940-de34e9540708 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-09-16T00:49:57Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#51d34f84-32e6-4b0e-bf68-d52d663dc1f7 "Integrity demands a belief in absolutes. Relativism ---the prattle about so-called "shades of grey" and so-called "other sides " to an issue is duplicious sellout thinking !" now that is sellout thinking. i do not need to believe in an absolute to keep my integrity, to be honorable, i do it all the time. it is an expanded perception(truth) when i say that solid is not an absolute, because when you go deeper, you find that it only appears solid because of the many atoms moving at the speed of light, and the vibratory rate that the object puts out gives it its appearance. and knowing this, i still have retained my ability to decipher from what is not beneficial to a collective of sentience and myself and what is not beneficial. Wed, 16 Sep 2009 00:49:08 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#51d34f84-32e6-4b0e-bf68-d52d663dc1f7 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-09-16T00:49:08Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#6a860365-9b46-4d55-9465-149d0a900aa7 it was initially intended as an educational tool, but by the time it was implemented in any real way in terms of the WWW, it had become a commercial tool. That the commercial tool can be used for educational purposes is not disputed; that it is an educational tool is highly arguable. Tue, 15 Sep 2009 21:38:38 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#6a860365-9b46-4d55-9465-149d0a900aa7 Lokifreign 2009-09-15T21:38:38Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#5d60b35d-e18f-4100-bf9f-b307d0adec6d SHADOW POSTED :im not sure what this is in reference to, but ok. lol. i agree, there are no absolutes. RESPONSE: The above statement is sellout think (i.e.relativism) . Why bother fighting for social justice---ending injustice, stopping the oppression of the poor, ending the injustice against women , ending racism, standing up for animal rights, and a lot of other good causes if there are no absolutes only merely what is "true to us" , "right for us" ---and all that similar squishy. MTV Generation talk . Integrity demands a belief in absolutes. Relativism ---the prattle about so-called "shades of grey" and so-called "other sides " to an issue is duplicious sellout thinking ! Tue, 15 Sep 2009 15:25:27 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#5d60b35d-e18f-4100-bf9f-b307d0adec6d Jason Leary 2009-09-15T15:25:27Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#259e169f-03fa-478d-9393-6dc983a1762f JELLY POSTED :Let's not forget a definition of politics is 'the give and take that helps us all get along,' or 'the art of compromise.' All relationships are political on some level, aren't they? RESPONSE: "Give and take " is highly overrated at best. Too often the term "give and take" is a code phrase that tries to get people to sell-out/ become ambivalent /respect crass opinions ...be postmodernist . The attitude that seeks a balance in the mediocre middle between any polarities is ultimately the most evil attitude. Furthermore, NOT every relationship has to be poiltical . JELLY POSTED :It feels like you tried to draw a line and say this is 'us' and that is 'them.' RESPONSE: The Us versus Them approach is darn good . One of the key signs of a sellout/ a postmodernist relativist ..is when a person rejects the us vs them approach *as if* it were somehow bad. The US vs Them approach is good . Distinctions matter ! Tue, 15 Sep 2009 15:03:07 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#259e169f-03fa-478d-9393-6dc983a1762f Jason Leary 2009-09-15T15:03:07Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#0c2be7e4-51c3-45a8-9cef-11308d576f1e (sorry to restart this old thread!) I totally agree... the web/net is mainly for trivial information. you're right that you can find out anything about entertainment (to which I include recent american politics as well), and little more. Thanks to Borders and Barnes & Noble, I can't find too many mom and pop book stores in my area that carry the books I need, so Amazon fills that gap. Same goes for music, I suppose. But, don't forget that we are all here on Tribe, and the net is good for community (when used correctly, unlike Twitter and Facebook, which are about as shallow as you can get). On the net, I can meet people that suggest further reading for me, and that is priceless. The exchange of ideas, whether I agree or not, is refreshing at times, and leaves me with plenty to keep my mind going. But, having worked in education for 7+ years now, building online math and science curriculum for junior high students, I have to disagree with your last sentence. There is no "pretending" that the web is and will continue to be a valuable asset in education. But, to clarify, one has to be in school to usually gain access to such education sites. Unless, of course, you mean that the average person who watches a lot of TV and then thinks of their web surfing to banal entertainment websites as "educational". THEN I would agree. Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:07:57 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#0c2be7e4-51c3-45a8-9cef-11308d576f1e g'reg 2009-09-15T13:07:57Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#9df91e9f-7535-454d-b866-48560dc0b07b "the net" lacks most information of real value, I find. If you want to know who played Uncle Silas in Peter Hammond's "the Dark Angel" then "the net" will "educate" you. If you want to research something of depth, turn off the computer and go to the library. One exception, I suppose, to this axiom is that you can use "the net" (read: TV you talk to) to locate books and other learning materials. Pretending that the internet is an educational tool of some kind was already hilarious and absurd by the time Al Gore invented it. Fri, 31 Jul 2009 23:26:35 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#9df91e9f-7535-454d-b866-48560dc0b07b Lokifreign 2009-07-31T23:26:35Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#4674f8d5-d338-4d02-80f0-571ad19e412e You are an anarchist if you can prevent cancer, sing a song, dance in the moonlight and fuck till dawn, with a generous supple supply of chuckles spread all around and delay tooth decay too, then it might not matter all that much that you're still lonely enough to wish for a hot sexy robot toy. oh...my little bit of sage advice never give away too much or too little ...of what you might ask. why of advice of course. Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:15:24 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#4674f8d5-d338-4d02-80f0-571ad19e412e ~glen~ 2009-07-06T23:15:24Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#30d1c6af-0c56-4bfc-88a2-806105e6bd48 Wow, thanks! Kerry Thornley always said that he liked RA Wilson; for some reason it was scuttlebutt that there was acrimony between them, but apparently not. Let's put it on a flag: "Belief is the death of intelligence." Sun, 05 Jul 2009 11:59:20 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#30d1c6af-0c56-4bfc-88a2-806105e6bd48 Lokifreign 2009-07-05T11:59:20Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#bf5abca9-98e9-436a-9886-125a3642b3b9 Lokifreign! You're my hero in this thread. Awesome replies. Here's one for you.... "Belief is the death of intelligence." - Robert Anton Wilson Fri, 26 Jun 2009 20:09:48 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#bf5abca9-98e9-436a-9886-125a3642b3b9 Evan 2009-06-26T20:09:48Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#40fe9d7b-5481-4c0b-9984-1ed1e5e91a5b "• rejection of the yearning for things to be simple in human society - even 'primitive' human society " also loki, in response to this comment: "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." ~Margaret Mead~ Mon, 11 May 2009 09:21:33 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#40fe9d7b-5481-4c0b-9984-1ed1e5e91a5b Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-11T09:21:33Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#a18fc059-9108-4d6e-a378-7bd98a550756 "Anarchism is not "all about self awareness". Not at all. Not even a little. Philosophers may ascribe self-awareness to hypothetical anarchists - but it is illustrative at best and not binding nor required. Self-knowledge is an entirely different subject." loki, everything is connected, even the things that beleive are not connected based on your own subjectivity. i hope in time, you will come to understand this. do you want to be just another chain link to the chain of Causality? if not, then i suggest you become more self-aware therefore gaining the ability to use your Free-Will, and in order to do so a connection to the higher aspects of life is needed. if you are truly interested in being in the pathless land of truth, then you will need to "Know Thyself" in the full spectrum meaning of the phrase, if you are truly interested in Freeing yourself, then i suggest you try and drop that spite towards me, simply becomes my body is younger than yours, and give listen. this gets my point across, hopefully : "Truth has no path. Truth is living and, therefore, changing. Awareness is without choice, without demand, without anxiety; in that state of mind, there is perception. To know oneself is to study oneself in action with another person. Awareness has no frontier; it is giving of your whole being, without exclusion. Truth is a pathless land. When there is freedom from mechanical conditioning, there is simplicity. The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow — you are not understanding yourself." ~Krishnamurti~ Mon, 11 May 2009 09:16:38 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#a18fc059-9108-4d6e-a378-7bd98a550756 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-11T09:16:38Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#1c64fe89-c535-4ac9-b16a-4f8631709bfb no problema. plus it will become good reference material. Mon, 11 May 2009 04:03:09 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#1c64fe89-c535-4ac9-b16a-4f8631709bfb Tedster 2009-05-11T04:03:09Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#3757e4e2-df9e-43cc-a0c4-1bd0ee0684a0 hmmmm, thx Tedster, i will consider buying that book in case i dont have the Net to use at a future time. Mon, 11 May 2009 03:55:50 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#3757e4e2-df9e-43cc-a0c4-1bd0ee0684a0 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-11T03:55:50Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#64c1ca49-a381-431a-9fbd-bc8cca9081e3 It's really really long. It is a two volume book, the second one I don't think has been published yet, but if you get tired of reading it from a computer screen, you might seek its copy on paper. http://akpress.org/2007/items/ananarchistfaqakpress Mon, 11 May 2009 03:17:07 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#64c1ca49-a381-431a-9fbd-bc8cca9081e3 Tedster 2009-05-11T03:17:07Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#f35168cd-d1bf-4366-a14a-be1a50a50649 I am glad that you are reading it. I hope it helps. Mon, 11 May 2009 02:42:14 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#f35168cd-d1bf-4366-a14a-be1a50a50649 Djinn 2009-05-11T02:42:14Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#54c50681-a7cb-4f1b-917b-51ba5f0de51b "Are we talking about metaphysics or are we talking about Anarchism? " both. metaphysics is not separate from freedom, not separate from the self or your own life, freedom is the aim of Anarchism. "Try reading it. What harm could it do to educate yourself? " no harm. in fact, im reading right now, so i can have those reference points to refer to others in the future. yet, i need a more abstract way of referencing when i wont have a computer or the Net to use. Mon, 11 May 2009 01:43:33 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#54c50681-a7cb-4f1b-917b-51ba5f0de51b Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-11T01:43:33Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#14077497-9604-4767-819b-b484aa0b4457 also, you didn't have to be so vague. this mis-understanding wouldn't have occurred if you actually took the time to explain yourself, since this is what i have to do all the time, because there are so many misconceptions and confusion with certain words like socialism or anarchism. yet, if you look at the original meaning of socialism objectively, and take it apart, one would find the "ism", which is just a certain distinctive way or guidance to an ideal. then one could look at the word social, which is a behavior of sentience when their is more than one, it is to socialize in a collective, group or society. so of course when you look at it in this manner, Social Anarchism is exactly what i have been trying to describe, except without all that primitive BS, with Monetary systems and property ownership. of course the individual would be able to have his/her own private space, that is why as i said a balance of individualism and collectivism is needed. Mon, 11 May 2009 01:39:06 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#14077497-9604-4767-819b-b484aa0b4457 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-11T01:39:06Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#0dded3b3-2d5f-409a-bcf4-5fc658ef10c5 Are we talking about metaphysics or are we talking about Anarchism? I suggest taking the time to read the FAQ. You seem a little lost on some of the basic concepts and terminology. I agree that philosophy is organic and changes with the times, but it really helps to have a reference point and you lack a reference point because you have not taken the time to go over the basics. There are other ways of learning things, but apparently in this instance that isnt working out for you. Try reading it. What harm could it do to educate yourself? Mon, 11 May 2009 01:33:49 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#0dded3b3-2d5f-409a-bcf4-5fc658ef10c5 Djinn 2009-05-11T01:33:49Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#eb5c0cb9-af2a-4dfe-9404-78071090fbe8 "Its a really simple question. Did you read it all or didnt you?" did i read then whole FAQ word for word? no, but i have checked out every link, and it doesn't tell me anything new that i haven't already figured out for myself. anyways, Anarchism isn't some fixed form of living, it isn't a fixed system set in stone, it was made that way for the very purpose of being malleable, fluid. this way of living is a progressive way, not a stagnant one. Anarchism is a living system, like all living things, it was meant to advance, grow, spiral out, evolve. it is a revolutionary system that allows itself to advance those who are a part of it, then it keeps going beyond what you think it should be, it is a living system wherein humanity can flourish, grow, expand their consciousness, until the very moment they become truly free and do not need guidance of this living entity called Anarchism. do any of you beleive in another realm of being besides the one you can see? what about spiritualism(no, im not talking about religion)? do you beleive that their is a spiritual world other than this physical one you all relate to? Mon, 11 May 2009 01:24:48 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#eb5c0cb9-af2a-4dfe-9404-78071090fbe8 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-11T01:24:48Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#3f05f74a-d809-49bd-9086-673291843709 "rejection of the yearning for things to be simple in human society - even 'primitive' human society " never once have i said it was that simple, there are many variables to this, and i know this type of advanced society cannot be done in one night, it will take a few generations to get the ball rolling right. *this is from the thread i provided, if you even bothered at all to read what i wrote there awhile back Person: "What makes people abandon individuality and give over to the illusion of elite-ism & power driven dreams?" Me: well, there are many variables to this. HAARP technology being one of them, which is frequency tech that manipulates frequencies, scalar wave tech. given that the brain functions on frequencies, even thoughts are frequencies, so it wouldn't be too far-fetched to assume that if someone like me can figure that out, then im sure they already know about it and can use their HAARP facilities to manipulate the mass mind. still, add all of that with the frequent propaganda that the populations are beat and clubbed on the head with daily, and religion, then the COINTELPRO and mass campaign of dis-info and mis-info to further confuse everyone, designed to ensnare any who dare seek the truth and truths of the matters, or who seek to advance themselves to their full potentials. then there are external government politics, charade games everywhere you look, so many distractions. it is a Bullshit three ring circus sideshow. and of course you've got the inter-dimensional agendas at the very top at the same time, and i doubt it stops there. after you start to see these things, you begin to see a picture painting itself, and so far, i don't like what i see. Person: "I am not trying to be negative, but if big brother could somehow gravitate towards anarchy there will always be those that would seek to cheat the anarchy system also, it's human nature." Me: that is why "big brother" cannot be allowed to infiltrate it. of course there will always be those who seek to enslave or dominate, or do something for their own purposes and agendas, a strictly service to self beings. it is not human nature, it is behavior learned, learned through social conditioning and social engineering, thus becoming a self-perpetuating vicious circle passed down from parents to children, locked in a never ending circle. and it has been discovered that DNA can be influenced to be changed by words, thoughts and energy. that is why to them it is important to keep the status quo mind-set in place,for if the status quo were to be shattered, this would give humanity a chance to really sink into their true and full potentials, which would allow them to step into the realms that were once invisible, allowing them to see the manipulators, thus leveling the playing field. here is a bit from Bruce Lipton: http://www.infiniteunknown.net/2008/08/17/bruce-lipton-the-new-biology-where-mind-and-matter-meet/ http://www.brucelipton.com/article/mind-over-genes-the-new-biology yeah i know, we all get tired of the never ending enslavement. but one must never give up the fight for true freedom, at all costs one must never surrender, no matter how great the odds, no matter of the world stands against you, fight back, never give up, never surrender. Mon, 11 May 2009 01:14:25 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#3f05f74a-d809-49bd-9086-673291843709 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-11T01:14:25Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#6d9ed11f-69cb-4a6b-9853-a40be501e4f1 Anarchism is not "all about self awareness". Not at all. Not even a little. Philosophers may ascribe self-awareness to hypothetical anarchists - but it is illustrative at best and not binding nor required. Self-knowledge is an entirely different subject. Sun, 10 May 2009 20:46:42 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#6d9ed11f-69cb-4a6b-9853-a40be501e4f1 Lokifreign 2009-05-10T20:46:42Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#24aabee7-a639-4f97-8bf9-84e2cc80fd56 Its a really simple question. Did you read it all or didnt you? I would suggest starting with Proudhon, because that is when people started to use the word Anarchism to describe a political philosophy, though there were similar trends in society before him and many offshoots afterwards. The FAQ is pretty decent. It gives you a basic rundown of what you need to know so that you dont get stuck in arguments like this. Sun, 10 May 2009 19:16:04 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#24aabee7-a639-4f97-8bf9-84e2cc80fd56 Djinn 2009-05-10T19:16:04Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#d9810127-1806-4f2d-98b2-04f1071b9f79 Thanks for doing the heavy lifting, Loki ...and you too, Sentience. I feel like we are trying to converse with an arrogant drunken college sophomore at a party. (No wonder I keep feeling the ghost of Ayn Rand at my elbow!!) Sun, 10 May 2009 17:35:48 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#d9810127-1806-4f2d-98b2-04f1071b9f79 grouchosuave 2009-05-10T17:35:48Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#368ff14a-140a-42b0-ada8-d1c917edfef3 >>if i am wrong, why don't you tell me, show me where we differ. << Forgive me Sent; I just can't restrain myself today; Where you and Sent differ, where you and I differ: • diligent study • ruthless criticism of one's own thought processes • acceptance of and surrender to the definite and clear -need- for years of painfully slow education • rejection of the yearning for things to be simple in human society - even 'primitive' human society Sat, 09 May 2009 12:00:32 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#368ff14a-140a-42b0-ada8-d1c917edfef3 Lokifreign 2009-05-09T12:00:32Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#77972e2f-ae60-4c55-aaf9-f4f3cde68422 "So did you actually read the entire FAQ? The thing with books is that owning them doesnt make you smart, especially if you dont read them." just what the hell are you talking about? driving someone away isn't what i have come to know Anarchism as. this is what you are doing, nothing i say, not even agreeing with you can get you to stop your unnecessary stance of passive-aggressiveness towards me. reading the FAQ in its entirety isnt relevant here, that is just like someone telling me to read the plagiarized religious bible all the way, i dont need to read the whole damned bible to know it was plagiarized and is being used to deceive people. so if social anarchism isn't all about community, cooperation, and keeping our own unique minds, then just what the hell is it exactly? if everything i have said is wrong, oh enlightened one, why dont you tell me just what your point is in all of this? and what books are you talking about? i didnt take anything i have said from any books, it all came from within, from objectively observing and putting it all together with my subjectivity, my own experiences, then listening to others so then i can learn more and connect more dots to form a more clearer picture. so again, why argue petty and trivial things like semantics, i have openly admitted that i misunderstood, and that we had the same ideas just using different words. if i am wrong, why don't you tell me, show me where we differ. Sat, 09 May 2009 09:45:10 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#77972e2f-ae60-4c55-aaf9-f4f3cde68422 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-09T09:45:10Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#2a8a1234-ee2c-40d4-acf2-d95e583c1e7f So did you actually read the entire FAQ? The thing with books is that owning them doesnt make you smart, especially if you dont read them. Sat, 09 May 2009 06:49:48 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#2a8a1234-ee2c-40d4-acf2-d95e583c1e7f Djinn 2009-05-09T06:49:48Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#abd67174-8af0-4f6a-a44f-9e1ef31a4b4e [stabs self in eyes] Sat, 09 May 2009 05:08:17 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#abd67174-8af0-4f6a-a44f-9e1ef31a4b4e Lokifreign 2009-05-09T05:08:17Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#89de8949-ff61-4c57-8110-e74aae65e3d4 "You could start by reading the Anarchist FAQ over at infoshop" well, if you clicked on the link i provided in this thread, you would have noticed that the FAQ is given there. although, i do admit i misunderstood what Social Anarchism meant, i believe that many people get it mixed up with Socialism, which was the case here. what i have described is basically what you have described as social anarchism, Sentient, as i said, we are getting mixed up in semantics, we have the same structural views on Anarchism, we just use different words. Sat, 09 May 2009 02:01:30 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#89de8949-ff61-4c57-8110-e74aae65e3d4 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-09T02:01:30Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#6e3e81b5-007b-403a-91b6-b0e8ee5167ab "You can't just skim some chapter headings and websites, and then expect to have garnered even a cursory outline of complex topics. You actually have to cultivate an *enjoyment* for learning, a *relish* for proving yourself wrong." lol, and what makes you think that i am not desiring to learn? i can say that you do not desire to listen, therefore you cannot learn, and therefore you do not relish learning. i question myself everyday, i have always said question everything, even yourself. also, there is no deflection going on. becuase form what i see, it is you that is acting like the "dick", i have been trying to clarify some things on the stance i have yet you refuse to listen and wive me off as just another failed person, this is not what it means to have an open-mind. Sat, 09 May 2009 01:32:32 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#6e3e81b5-007b-403a-91b6-b0e8ee5167ab Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-09T01:32:32Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#6e0ac3e4-f0b0-41a2-9ee1-3475fe7eac5a >>it seems like you are mistaking me with yourself. << No sir; my dickishness is of an entirely different character. It's not like anyone here is unfamiliar with my faillings - and it does no good to attempt deflection in this forum. The anarchists in here are pretty fuckin' smart and well-read as a rule The thing about education in many (most by far) theoretical subjects is that you are obliged to read long essays and thick books, absorbing and analyzing lots of data, ruthlessly criticizing your own thoughts and beliefs, I mean *ruthlessly* debunking your own thought processes. You can't just skim some chapter headings and websites, and then expect to have garnered even a cursory outline of complex topics. You actually have to cultivate an *enjoyment* for learning, a *relish* for proving yourself wrong. Fri, 08 May 2009 23:51:11 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#6e0ac3e4-f0b0-41a2-9ee1-3475fe7eac5a Lokifreign 2009-05-08T23:51:11Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#5bffefd1-437d-4b67-9ce5-b1d760157079 You could start by reading the Anarchist FAQ over at infoshop. Its a good long read if you do the whole thing. Then you can read Proudhons essay of property. From there you can go deeper into whichever branch you feel like. Then you wouldnt have to ask us all these questions. Fri, 08 May 2009 22:46:46 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#5bffefd1-437d-4b67-9ce5-b1d760157079 Djinn 2009-05-08T22:46:46Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#01fa8629-b42c-452c-bebc-f309130a8646 "Seriously. Better *yourself* and maybe in a decade or something you'll *be* that educational voice you seem to want to be. The perverse conundrum is that, when you set out to "teach" people, you just come off as a dick. " i know, in a decade i will be a different person, much more adpet in cutting through the shear fog of confusion that results in mis-understandings. also, how am i coming off as a dick? it seems like you are mistaking me with yourself. Fri, 08 May 2009 21:12:42 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#01fa8629-b42c-452c-bebc-f309130a8646 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-08T21:12:42Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#858b3a00-1f8e-4b16-9048-515c9dc3793f holy moly it's like trying to dive into a trampoline Fri, 08 May 2009 20:55:21 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#858b3a00-1f8e-4b16-9048-515c9dc3793f Lokifreign 2009-05-08T20:55:21Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#6a4e3c12-7698-41c1-a5ac-2c7534684777 Aaaagh; you would do so much better at this if you'd endeavor to educate *yourself* rather than trying to educate others, Shad. Seriously. Better *yourself* and maybe in a decade or something you'll *be* that educational voice you seem to want to be. The perverse conundrum is that, when you set out to "teach" people, you just come off as a dick. Most teachers suffer this. It's a terrible shame. Fri, 08 May 2009 20:54:15 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#6a4e3c12-7698-41c1-a5ac-2c7534684777 Lokifreign 2009-05-08T20:54:15Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#a32ccf35-7199-4b3e-9f29-bd15f8d99f86 well, those two assumptions are not accurate, even if the masses beleive it. the problem is not the words, it is the words right meaning that was not given, and it is up to all of us to give the right words meaning to inform them. individualism means to use your own mind, it is an appreciation for a unique mind, whos imagination and creativity is not held down by social conformity to which a sick society does not appreciate. this balanced with collectivism, a natural understanding that helping out the community will heighten their own chances of survival, the contribution to the whole results in contributing to oneself, which of course to the STS(service to self only) types of person, is a very inconvenient way of life, and hurting others for self gain which is something that comes out of greed, is a very Nihilistic attitude which will result in self destruction at the expense of those that surround said person. so you see, an extreme of anything, even if good at first, will always result in an unhealthy relationship. even drinking too much water can result in death, one can literally drown themselves in water. this reminds me of a nice quote: "Ever reviled, accursed, ne'er understood, Thou art the grisly terror of our age. "Wreck of all order," cry the multitude, "Art thou, & war & murder's endless rage." 0, let them cry. To them that ne'er have striven The 'truth that lies behind a word to find, To them the word's right meaning was not given. They shall continue blind among the blind. But thou, O word, so clear, so strong, so true, Thou sayest all which I for goal have taken. I give thee to the future! Thine secure When each at least unto himself shall waken. Comes it in sunshine? In the tempest's thrill? I cannot tell - but it the earth shall see! I am an Anarchist! Wherefore I will Not rule, & also ruled I will not be! " ~John Henry Mackay~ yet, that very behavior of taking over things is just one of the symptoms of these sick societies, it is behavior learned, not human nature. how about having shops and all, without that greed and desire to hoard things. when there is abundance there is no need for such petty desires, and abundance can be created through the release of the suppressed technologies that can advance humanity and give them abundance of the basics, and even more. the problem is, is getting to the root/core of the causes of all these sick symptoms, gotta dig deep. it is quite a dangerous road, but one that needs to be taken, otherwise no real and relevant change will ever take place as long as people are satisfied with the very small incremental and irrelevant change that goes on every 8 years. with all of the advanced technology that is being currently suppressed, we would see a whole different world if they were released and put to good use, rather than using them secretly and turning them into weapons of war. Fri, 08 May 2009 08:09:02 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#a32ccf35-7199-4b3e-9f29-bd15f8d99f86 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-08T08:09:02Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#ea6f2ad4-6b71-4326-8b45-d818fb0e697f Individualism and Collectivism have a lot of baggage as terms. People assume that collectivism means individual submission to a central authority that represents the whole or that individualism means support for Capitalism, neither of which is appropriate to Anarchism in any way shape or form. It is not a combination of submission to a central authority plus plutocratic corporate ownership, it is neither of these things. Anarchists have historically advocated abolishing the wage system, but there are many alternatives that have been proposed. The idea I guess is that collectives and federations can operate alongside individualists. However, corporate ownership is not going to be respected by the masses, and once the people who occupy their dwellings and run their shops take over it is not likely that another corporate takeover will be tolerated unless the resistance is crushed by an external power. Fri, 08 May 2009 07:07:12 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#ea6f2ad4-6b71-4326-8b45-d818fb0e697f Djinn 2009-05-08T07:07:12Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#ff6120b6-97a6-4ec4-8da9-64396b662ff2 "the notion that collectivism and individualism are mutually exclusive is, by me, one of the most poignant mental failings of the vast majority of thinkers. " is this your way of implying that there is no such thing as individual thought? that one cannot be both separate and a part of a collective? Fri, 08 May 2009 04:26:49 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#ff6120b6-97a6-4ec4-8da9-64396b662ff2 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-08T04:26:49Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#cb1b66d4-861a-4cb4-ae41-3f1f038958df also, those words, individualism and collectivism have not lost meaning at all, atleast not to me. the only thing that makes a word a word is the meaning put into it. individualism, autonomy, same thing, same structural meaning, so why be divided over semantics? Fri, 08 May 2009 04:24:40 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#cb1b66d4-861a-4cb4-ae41-3f1f038958df Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-08T04:24:40Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#763ae9ad-70da-4795-a249-b3aaa5510330 "I guess you could call it a balance of individualism and collectivism, but these words have lost their meaning." well, as long as there is a monetary system, this anarchy will always change back into what we have today, with many other forms of a hierarchy. so would you agree that external governance is not relevant in an Anarchistic society? rather than having what you see today as governance, people can self-govern themselves, and if they prove incapable, then the whole society will be the government and deal with said individual. basically a "if you cant control yourself, we will control you for you" mind set. Fri, 08 May 2009 04:22:38 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#763ae9ad-70da-4795-a249-b3aaa5510330 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-08T04:22:38Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#871a65d1-f74c-4da5-ac66-dab92e53b75d >>Anarchists were the original Libertarians as well as some of the first socialists << and lifeforms. the notion that collectivism and individualism are mutually exclusive is, by me, one of the most poignant mental failings of the vast majority of thinkers. 1 in a 1000 bother to think, of them, 1 in a 1000 thinks of something worthwhile. Call me all shades o' whatever - I've grown too tired and have become too impoverished as a result of doing things nicely. It was perhaps a tad arrogant of me to expect to be able to reverse 65,000 years of the basic facts-o-life. Fri, 08 May 2009 03:48:18 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#871a65d1-f74c-4da5-ac66-dab92e53b75d Lokifreign 2009-05-08T03:48:18Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#ad5a0b6d-5caa-418e-b2ce-cc55da83a1ab It is extreme collectivism in the sense that the ruling class and very rich and powerful have been completely driven from power and the means of production have returned to the working class. We are not talking about allowing them to continue capitalist control of the means of production but tempering it with laws and regulations as is the case with progressivism, but we are talking about totally usurping the power and the wealth and giving it to those who live and work the factories and land, taking away their ability to practice usury. Anarcho-Socialists are farther left than the Communists are. However, they also take an extreme position on personal liberty and individual autonomy, which means we sometimes agree with the far left in regard to big business and sometimes agree with the far right (libertarians) when it comes to individual freedom and autonomy. The result is Anarchism. I guess you could call it a balance of individualism and collectivism, but these words have lost their meaning. Anarchists were the original Libertarians as well as some of the first socialists. Fri, 08 May 2009 02:59:09 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#ad5a0b6d-5caa-418e-b2ce-cc55da83a1ab Djinn 2009-05-08T02:59:09Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#ec7ded88-8642-4027-9d89-7a44d0da5529 finally an answer, thank you Sentient. what you are describing is not collectivism to the extreme, it is what i call a balance of individualism and collectivism, i do not understand why loki cannot understand this simple concept. this is all i have been trying to convey, that one shouldn't have to be completely group minded, a balance is needed, i do not know why he vehemently is against the meaning of balance Fri, 08 May 2009 02:37:07 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#ec7ded88-8642-4027-9d89-7a44d0da5529 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-08T02:37:07Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#ddf477c4-4863-4170-9386-818ed3255d2e You're a better man than I , Sent Fri, 08 May 2009 02:31:24 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#ddf477c4-4863-4170-9386-818ed3255d2e Lokifreign 2009-05-08T02:31:24Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#ab62a597-234e-4219-b3c1-1db94f6c8d40 Collectivists in an Anarchist society organize around voluntary association. Because it is decentralized, then its not majority rule. A majority decision might be made within collectives, but you are free to not associate and can have autonomy to the extent that you are not violating the rights of others. There are some differences among the strains of Anarchism, but collectivists do not advocate democratic centralism. Fri, 08 May 2009 02:19:54 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#ab62a597-234e-4219-b3c1-1db94f6c8d40 Djinn 2009-05-08T02:19:54Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#d094d2af-8c67-4c26-8859-22522a09a3e4 since you ignored my question, here it is again: Are you a collectivist, the majority rules kind of guy? Thu, 07 May 2009 09:58:04 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#d094d2af-8c67-4c26-8859-22522a09a3e4 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-07T09:58:04Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#95216dae-0250-4b72-8aa6-768a47354bfa rationality? lol. it is but one piece of the whole, an incomplete tool. in order to understand and be able to sift through the dirt to the gold that is truth. in Alchemical terms one must combine the rational/critical mind and the intuitive "intelligence of the heart", or the sun and the moon. rational by itself can be easily manipulated. are you that black and white kind of person that only believes in what false science(rationality by itself) can measure? Thu, 07 May 2009 09:20:42 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#95216dae-0250-4b72-8aa6-768a47354bfa Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-07T09:20:42Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#ddea1903-33b6-41f6-b3e4-45481ed5cf12 >> and how do you know what is natural and un-natural?<< Rationality. As for the rest - your either/or premise is exemplary of a stunted, sheltered, childish, and myopic worldview in which must *either* conform *or* rebel. I am not the person to gently guide you to understanding, unfortunately. I am not patient, kind, nor indulgent. You appear to be incapable of understanding my words, and I am unwilling to condescend to you. Thu, 07 May 2009 07:27:57 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#ddea1903-33b6-41f6-b3e4-45481ed5cf12 Lokifreign 2009-05-07T07:27:57Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#72c40976-0264-4e9a-8593-9fe47012701a "Not demonstrated. This is a value judgement that assumes the existence of some kind of magical form of "balance" that human beings can control or alter." lol, again with the judgment BS? there is a big difference between judgment and pointing something out, the first one which includes emotion, bias and opinion, the second which is strictly objective, with no emotion , bias or opinion. i am pointing something out, just an objective observation of balance, and how everything comes down to it. "There is, simply, no compelling reason at all - aside from religious belief - to perceive such a state. It's literally an hallucination. New Agers have *really* poisoned the well with this kind of belief. " another assumption eh? what have i told you about assuming, loki? the new age is basically the old age, there is nothing new about it, all it is is just another program of deceit. there are many truths within the new age movement, and many half-truths. "Silliness. Come on. What you're trying to explain is that your artificial construct is somehow superior to nature. Nature is responsible for what you see around you. All of it." and how do you know what is natural and un-natural? just because it is unnatural to you does it mean that it is for everyone else, again it seems you are way too into the whole collectivist mind set, wherein if the majority believes it is true then it must be. correct me if i am wrong, are you really a collectivist? Thu, 07 May 2009 07:00:43 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#72c40976-0264-4e9a-8593-9fe47012701a Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-07T07:00:43Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#2ca58f35-561a-4200-818e-714d318265fb "Of course, if you're pro-ruler and damn the torpedoes, then nothing I say or think matters in the slightest. Have at it; you're *even* free to be mistaken about what anarchism is and moves toward, what constitutes a sane social contract, and what words mean." what hell? did you not understand anything that i have told you? how did you even get the ridiculous notion that i am pro-ruler, just because i dont agree with your extremely collectivist anarchy? i see you still havent learned not to assume. i make some mistakes here and there, but i make it a habit to be aware of them so i can transcend them. "I would ask you to refrain from pretending to know what I am, what I believe in, what the condition of my nephesh is, where I stand with regard to self-knowledge, and so forth. You aren't a spiritual master; you don't have those capabilities. Accept it." lol, i would ask you to do the exact same thing, that which you are accusing me of is what you are doing right now, accept it. also, there is no master in anything, not even in spirituality. neither is spirituality limited to only those whos bodies have aged more than mine, lol. i just get reeeeally tired of things: anyone- •who keeps making assumptions •who actually believes in the fallacious "i am older so i know better" mind set •who keeps telling i don't know anything about anything at all •who believes acting like an asshole is Anarchism •that points the finger at me just because i point out some flaws in their belief systems •that call me judgmental for simply pointing something out, and whom thinks i am trying to be some kind of master •who lets their ego get in the way of real conversation •i could keep going you know. some quotes to help you better understand my position, careful, don't let that ego get the best of you: "You must know for yourself, directly, the truth of yourself and you cannot realize it through another, however great. There is no authority that can reveal it." ~Krishnamurti; Authentic Report of Sixteen Talks given in 1945 & 1946 p. 85.~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "You yourself have to be the master and the pupil. The moment you acknowledge another as a master and yourself as a pupil, you are denying truth. There is no master, no pupil, in the search for truth." ~Krishnamurti's Talks Benares-India 1949 (Verbatim Report) p.37~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "You must understand it, go into it, examine it, give your heart and your mind, with everything that you have, to find out a way of living differently. That depends on you, and not on someone else, because in this there is no teacher, no pupil; there is no leader; there is no guru; there is no Master, no Saviour. You yourself are the teacher and the pupil; you are the Master; you are the guru; you are the leader; you are everything." ~Talks by Krishnamurti in U.S.A 1966 p.73~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "If you are very clear, if you are inwardly a light unto yourself, you will never follow anyone." ~Krishnamurti's Talks Benares - India 1949 (Verbatim Report) p.38.~ Thu, 07 May 2009 06:48:56 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#2ca58f35-561a-4200-818e-714d318265fb Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-07T06:48:56Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#3feb4d84-66b8-447d-89a4-34c34abaf8e8 "Srsly, Shad - preach to your friends. This is not really an appropriate forum for telling people what's what, righto? Righto. " preaching? lol, i think not. Anarchism is all about self awareness, so i believe this is a perfect place to discuss this. Thu, 07 May 2009 06:33:13 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#3feb4d84-66b8-447d-89a4-34c34abaf8e8 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-07T06:33:13Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#f76cc25d-db11-4ce1-b76b-1bda650aa23c "Cloaking ones self in supposed sincerity when you never meet the discussion on its terms or don't cop to any of your own motivation, query, and subjectivity earns you the "fuck you." So get real or get lost. " lol, what the hell are you talking about? i apologize for the mis understanding, yet there is no need to explode on me, lol. anyways, you should really work on controlling your temper, it isnt a sign of someone who has gained much self-awareness. to be self aware is to be aware of how you react to a given stimuli, to which it is obvious you are not paying attention to yourself. if you cant even be self aware on the net, then i wonder how you fare in real life without being just another chain link to the chain of causality. Thu, 07 May 2009 06:29:51 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#f76cc25d-db11-4ce1-b76b-1bda650aa23c Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-07T06:29:51Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#a3f0b200-0b7a-4a20-add3-ee403aca7577 >>now in this modern era the symbioses has become unbalanced,<< Not demonstrated. This is a value judgement that assumes the existence of some kind of magical form of "balance" that human beings can control or alter. I think it's an expression of a rather common belief of many people: that humans are the most important things ever. "Nature" doesn't care what we believe. What you are describing is, apparently, a completely *unnatural* program, and it seems to derive its information from belief in a state of "balance" that is "superior" to a supposedly "imbalanced" relationship. There is, simply, no compelling reason at all - aside from religious belief - to perceive such a state. It's literally an hallucination. New Agers have *really* poisoned the well with this kind of belief. >>what i am trying to explain is far from what you could ever compare with in this "modern" state that you see the world in now.<< Silliness. Come on. What you're trying to explain is that your artificial construct is somehow superior to nature. Nature is responsible for what you see around you. All of it. Balance is what you're soaking in. Thu, 07 May 2009 05:23:53 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#a3f0b200-0b7a-4a20-add3-ee403aca7577 Lokifreign 2009-05-07T05:23:53Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#d0137f36-1103-4941-a84c-f7cde7ab46cb Sorry; I regret posting that way - that was pointlessly acrimonious. I just get reeeeally tired of these things: anyone - • pretending to know why anarchy "won't work" (despite its success in nature for at least 500,000,000 years) • spewing crappy spiritual-flavored bromides at me as if s/he's some kind of guru or authority • ignoring the facts in favor of an inscrutable and personal belief system when all available facts utterly contradict that belief system • clinging to mistaken beliefs despite having been shown the facts that utterly contradict those beliefs • clinging to mistaken definitions of terms • sucking up dictators' propaganda and acting as a volunteer mouthpiece for hierarchy by placing prejudiced opprobrium on anarchists In closing, the encouragement to RIOT NOW has almost nothing to do with your errant views on anarchism, and everything to do with simple and sound historical observations. Look at the world, look at the history of it, look at the history of changes in governmental structures, and ask yourself *what actually makes change happen*. Of course, if you're pro-ruler and damn the torpedoes, then nothing I say or think matters in the slightest. Have at it; you're *even* free to be mistaken about what anarchism is and moves toward, what constitutes a sane social contract, and what words mean. I would ask you to refrain from pretending to know what I am, what I believe in, what the condition of my nephesh is, where I stand with regard to self-knowledge, and so forth. You aren't a spiritual master; you don't have those capabilities. Accept it. Krishnamurti - despite his regrettable addiction to fanciful and unsupportable beliefs - would certainly have known better than to attempt to assess and judge the content of another individual's self-knowledge on such flimsy and temporal cues as you could have gleaned from the internet. Thu, 07 May 2009 05:02:10 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#d0137f36-1103-4941-a84c-f7cde7ab46cb Lokifreign 2009-05-07T05:02:10Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#a18c6489-272a-445a-a910-ede3c5a01743 Fuck you Shadow. After bending over backwards to miss my gist; (No one was trumpeting "smashy smashy"; quite the opposite really, if you bother to read *WHAT I WROTE* as opposed to what you had precomposed in your head), ;you throw out some condescending, agenda laden monologue while painting me uneducated, immature. And BTW: Cloaking ones self in supposed sincerity when you never meet the discussion on its terms or don't cop to any of your own motivation, query, and subjectivity earns you the "fuck you." So get real or get lost. 'Nuff said to wankers. Over and Out. Thu, 07 May 2009 04:02:32 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#a18c6489-272a-445a-a910-ede3c5a01743 grouchosuave 2009-05-07T04:02:32Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#de88d01d-915b-4922-9367-a67cfa1655c5 hahahahaha Nothing says "ponderous buffoon" like "lol, now i see that you lack much self knowledge" Srsly, Shad - preach to your friends. This is not really an appropriate forum for telling people what's what, righto? Righto. Thu, 07 May 2009 03:10:28 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#de88d01d-915b-4922-9367-a67cfa1655c5 Lokifreign 2009-05-07T03:10:28Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#5ec2e1c4-4122-4914-a1be-63034a2bbd6e i dont condemn violence or radical action when used in right action at the right time. but now, do you know what will happen? it'll give the sick governments and their pawns an excuse to get out there advanced techs that they have been saving for a civil war. yes, these battles are inevitable, but now is not the time to instigate them, that would only serve to give all Anarchists a very demonizing name, more than it has been today. do not rush things, take your time, and wait for the perfect moment, be the predator not the anxious prey, be the sniper who can wait days upon days for its target. Wed, 06 May 2009 23:15:13 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#5ec2e1c4-4122-4914-a1be-63034a2bbd6e Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-06T23:15:13Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#706892b8-17ee-4fd1-a1eb-f136b6f56bef "Riot. Meet every neighbor on your block. Chop the heads off parking meters. Take any step towards autonomy. Engage, motherfucker! Engage! and get that revolutionary motor iin gear.... 'cuz there is nothing, truly NOTHING ahead for us & our aspiration if Action isn't informing Theory - Theory informing Action. " you see, this is the type of behavior most have been able to demonize in the media, and this is what most people have come to expect from Anarchism, believing that it is all about chaos, disorder and nothing more than an excuse for other people to act like asses. this type of attitude is something expected from a frustrated teen who lacks much self knowledge, not from those who consider themselves in autonomy. this isnt autonomy, on the contrary, this is what i term Nihilism. loki, just because i use a term to fit a more accurate and modern version, doesn't mean it isnt "valid". also loki, i do not understand why you keep implying that i am an absolutist when i have never stated anything as an absolute. Wed, 06 May 2009 23:10:19 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#706892b8-17ee-4fd1-a1eb-f136b6f56bef Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-06T23:10:19Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#cd174158-7f57-4971-8a5f-a731df3afc86 "In parting from this flypaper may I remind the forum that any perception of "a need for balance" is an illusion promulgated by those who seek control/." not exactly, lol. your perception of balance as an artificial making of a persons desire for "control" is way off. i really do not care to persuade you, it is your choice to hold belief systems. self-knowledge is key to opening the ability to understand what i have spoken of, also self awareness helps in lessening the amount of assumptions that consume and fog up your perceptions of others, you have made many assumptions towards who i am and what you think i know, which is a grand fallacy in itself. "RIOT - don't sit here trying to convince *me* of things, Shad - RIOT NOW " riot? lol, now i see that you lack much self knowledge, yet i may hear the same old tired out excuses from you telling me that you already know yourself completely, to which i will say Bullshit. wrong action was never a remedy to the symptoms of the problems that plague this world. try and understand these words: "To put and end to this sorrow, to hunger, to war, there must be psychological revolution and few of us are willing to face that. We will discuss peace, plan legislation, create new leagues, the United Nations and so on; but we will not win peace because we will not give up our position, our authority, our money, our properties, our lives. To rely on others is utterly futile; others cannot bring us peace. No leader is going to gives us peace, no government, no army, no country. What will bring peace is inward transformation, which will lead to outward action. Inward transformation is not isolation, is not withdrawal from outward action. On the contrary, there can be right action only when there is right thinking and there is no right thinking when there is no self-knowledge. Without knowing yourself, there is no peace." ~Krishnamurti~ I stress this part more: "...there can be right action only when there is right thinking and there is no right thinking when there is no self-knowledge. Without knowing yourself, there is no peace." Wed, 06 May 2009 23:03:16 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#cd174158-7f57-4971-8a5f-a731df3afc86 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-06T23:03:16Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#a2e7ef76-b8dc-4c7b-807b-5c91a82bccc1 "...imagining what will or won't "work" according to the arc of human history is a pastime at best, monumentally worthless hubris on average">>> Werd, Loki. Riot. Meet every neighbor on your block. Chop the heads off parking meters. Take any step towards autonomy. Engage, motherfucker! Engage! and get that revolutionary motor iin gear.... 'cuz there is nothing, truly NOTHING ahead for us & our aspiration if Action isn't informing Theory - Theory informing Action. Order Instructs - Chaos Teaches. Wed, 06 May 2009 22:32:52 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#a2e7ef76-b8dc-4c7b-807b-5c91a82bccc1 grouchosuave 2009-05-06T22:32:52Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#25469045-90a1-4a79-8592-344579990412 Yeah; it's a thing I tend to forget until the coffee kicks in: "why the fuck even bother with discussion?" I keep catching myself thinking "hmm it's important to use the internet as a tool for influencing thought in such a way as to limit the prestige of absolutists' weird belief that they understand things from the helicopter and have determined precisely what we must all do" ~ FOREHEAD SMACK. In parting from this flypaper may I remind the forum that any perception of "a need for balance" is an illusion promulgated by those who seek control/. "Balance" doesn't often arise from control - except in artificial media. There is very little in the way of "balance" that humans can control except when being "righted" by natural processes - and none of us will ever have the faintest conception of what that entails, thus, imagining what will or won't "work" according to the arc of human history is a pastime at best, monumentally worthless hubris on average. RIOT - don't sit here trying to convince *me* of things, Shad - RIOT NOW it's a much smaller and more immediate matter than you think, man Wed, 06 May 2009 19:47:03 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#25469045-90a1-4a79-8592-344579990412 Lokifreign 2009-05-06T19:47:03Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#e7f979c3-57fd-48e3-8c82-479ed80885bf yet neither extreme will result in a different way of living that has not been done before, a society must be balanced between both individualism and collectivism, otherwise the result would be the same old failures time after time throughout the long history of humanity>>> If I had a cookie for every offhand, tin plated generalization thrown around ... I guess I'd be one fat, cookie-rich, bastard. Any topic deserving of attention, approached by anyone laying claim to sincerity deserves a bit more: perhaps an incisive appreciation of complexity, specificities, rigor, self examination and above all, a stance of circumspection, postulation, and query - (If one already knows enough to throw down certainties on grand scales, why the fuck even bother with discussion? ) Wed, 06 May 2009 16:58:22 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#e7f979c3-57fd-48e3-8c82-479ed80885bf grouchosuave 2009-05-06T16:58:22Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#809abe8e-f8aa-4f7b-9ebd-c71fd00053c1 im not sure what this is in reference to, but ok. lol. i agree, there are no absolutes. Wed, 06 May 2009 09:36:09 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#809abe8e-f8aa-4f7b-9ebd-c71fd00053c1 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-06T09:36:09Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#3c74a3ba-bf86-4a01-833e-82e09b0846f7 "Absolutism is the beginning of the end of wisdom" ~the smartest man in my office Wed, 06 May 2009 07:59:05 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#3c74a3ba-bf86-4a01-833e-82e09b0846f7 Lokifreign 2009-05-06T07:59:05Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#e2763f94-3aef-4716-a663-8d02e64738c8 "it's incumbent on me to understand that I don't get to make up what "poison" and "candy" mean, as words. It is part of the implicit social contract represented by language, itself. " you don't need a social contract or a piece of paper to use your creativity in order to find more efficient ways of doing something. how do you think the words came to be in the first place, by someone else using their own creative mind. if this kind of mind-set were prevalent in the world, nothing would ever get done, nothing would ever change, advance or evolve. things would just stay the same, and humanity would be caught in a mire of stagnancy, as you see it today. i see what you mean by social anarchism, yet neither extreme will result in a different way of living that has not been done before, a society must be balanced between both individualism and collectivism, otherwise the result would be the same old failures time after time throughout the long history of humanity. you seem to favor collectivism more than the other. Wed, 06 May 2009 06:29:39 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#e2763f94-3aef-4716-a663-8d02e64738c8 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-06T06:29:39Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#0b91d2c9-a7a1-4b82-ade9-bb74d6091589 >>i have termed it to be any behavior that is destructive to both self and others<< I define "candy" as "poison" and vice versa but it's a bad rule while in the grocer's. Despite my rebellious soul it's incumbent on me to understand that I don't get to make up what "poison" and "candy" mean, as words. It is part of the implicit social contract represented by language, itself. excelsior >>please enlighten me further. << cannabis = employed researcher Wed, 06 May 2009 03:38:58 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#0b91d2c9-a7a1-4b82-ade9-bb74d6091589 Lokifreign 2009-05-06T03:38:58Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#e82a229e-254d-42e6-896f-4b6c06363133 hmmm, from what i have gathered in your links provided, social anarchism is more like a democracy or Collectivist society. and it seems that both sides social and individualistic anarchism are at opposite ends of the extremes. Wolff wants complete individualistic anarchy, and in the socials want more of a collectivist union. am i wrong? if so then please enlighten me further. lol, i know anarchy equals no rulers, and that is a good thing. you would know that i agree if you have actually read what i have provided. and as for Nihilism, i have termed it to be any behavior that is destructive to both self and others is Nihilistic behavior. such as the street "thugs" going around in their "hoods" acting like a animal with no conscious at all, no self awareness, it is that "mate, feed, kill" mentality that i equate to Nihilism. and nihilistic behavior as i said is both destructive to the self and everyone around, so eventually when there is no one left to annihilate, they will inevitably annihilate themselves. i see that we are arguing semantics, for lack of more accurate words confusion and mis-understandings happen. this gets me to Political Anarchism, which i see as a balance between the individualists and the collectivists, it is neither a democracy nor a Nihilistic state of living. it is a symbioses, a balance and harmony between social and individual anarchy. Wed, 06 May 2009 00:09:19 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#e82a229e-254d-42e6-896f-4b6c06363133 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-06T00:09:19Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#697865e0-d360-483b-83b5-67b90528ae71 Why? Am I to believe there is some point in doing so? I simply rebut. If you want to be educated - you're free to make that happen. If you want a nice quick read that will dump it on you quickly and digestibly, though, I'll suggest to you Robert Wolff's "In Defense of Anarchism"... but my experience leads me to believe you *won't* educate yourself, and any expenditure on my part toward your benefit in this matter *is* a waste of my time. The rich have known anarchy is more successful since long before our country ever came into being - and they have been enjoying it all the while. Anarchy for the rich alone *is* a terrible thing. But, as they also enjoy oxygen - should I then conclude that oxygen = nihilism? (Or that nihilism is somehow inherently bad? pfft). Prove *me* wrong, an' it please you. The burden of proof started out on you and your sources. http://books.google.com/books?id=NFoL7_1cOpgC&dq=in+defense+of+anarchism+summary&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en http://library.nothingness.org/articles/SA/en/display/348 The reason so many dumbasses use 'nihilism' and 'anarchy' as negative terms is simply because they're cowards: facing the truth is scary - they assume, usually rightly, that their audiences will *also* find the truth shocking to the point of being highly objectionable. Nihilism is simply the acceptance of the simple and evident fact that all things end in annihilation. I chuck you that for free; it's easy to type. Additional elucidation will cost you some cannabis and maybe a pot of coffee. Here's another: anarchy = no rulers. So... yeah. Anti-anarchists that have no inherited wealth or tacit power are merely willing slaves for people they actually see as inherently superior to themselves. Disgusting. Let me also offer you this: "Beware the Man of Only One Book" Tue, 05 May 2009 23:31:35 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#697865e0-d360-483b-83b5-67b90528ae71 Lokifreign 2009-05-05T23:31:35Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#8e6e75b8-b766-4dc6-9c6c-3f477ba14bd5 "Revolutionary politics are the only worthwhile politics in my opinion." Yer opinion ain't worthwhile then HAR! ", and within that realm compromise usually represents betrayal" Ya got that right about compromise, chief. No compromise. Tue, 05 May 2009 20:45:53 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#8e6e75b8-b766-4dc6-9c6c-3f477ba14bd5 The Man 2009-05-05T20:45:53Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#dd2f336a-7c57-4639-be4f-9bcc9dd7bab4 from the trhead: Person: "individualism and self-reliance...exactly so how is one self-reliant if you need others to survive...(want and need to different things)... why must we seek out others? to have a group is to assign leadership base of some such merit...a" Me: i never said need, an individual if they so chose to, if they wanted could go join a society like this, but that doesn't mean they have a "need" to do so. a group or society doesn't necessarily mean having a leader, for all of them would be leaders,it is called symbioses, much like how humans live with nature, but now in this modern era the symbioses has become unbalanced, balance doesn't mean their is a restriction to advancing. a balance of collectivism and individualism in this type of society doesnt mean that the individual would be set in a group/hive mind mentality. and again, what i am trying to explain is far from what you could ever compare with in this "modern" state that you see the world in now. Mon, 04 May 2009 23:44:40 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#dd2f336a-7c57-4639-be4f-9bcc9dd7bab4 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-04T23:44:40Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#f09f7cb9-5618-4e51-adfd-368d015238bc *Correction on this thread, this one is the actual link i was trying to provide.* *There are great discussions in the link provided above that will clear things up more after the reader has understood the basics. now, here is a link to a discussion specifically on this subject of Anarchism, one will find that it clarifies further on what we have been trying to expound: http://tribes.tribe.net/2012horizon/thread/ff831fc1-8e65-44f9-a82d-ad80027eb37a Mon, 04 May 2009 23:40:31 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#f09f7cb9-5618-4e51-adfd-368d015238bc Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-04T23:40:31Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#8cb20c70-ee77-46a5-bfa3-fea8d062abbd "The association of social anarchism with nihilism - another essential and natural concept the ignorant fear without reason or review - renders the source you rely on for corroboration of your polemic against phantoms 100% silly." Loki, if i am completely wrong and my studies are all BS, prove it. give me something to read and study rather than your own subjective wave offs. if Nihilism cannot be equated to Social Anarchism, then show me, loki, what is social anarchism? Mon, 04 May 2009 23:30:22 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#8cb20c70-ee77-46a5-bfa3-fea8d062abbd Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-05-04T23:30:22Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#082603c0-b85a-46c8-8b44-33ec511f8aaf I thought this a worthwhile point to make, but since I'm a revolutionary socialist and I do not consider myself an anarchist, I'll leave the rest of this conversation to you anarchists. Mon, 04 May 2009 17:17:34 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#082603c0-b85a-46c8-8b44-33ec511f8aaf Steven 2009-05-04T17:17:34Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#bc1843f5-88c4-428d-975b-1c608db4f009 Jelly says, "Let's not forget a definition of politics is 'the give and take that helps us all get along,' or 'the art of compromise.'" I won't argue whether this is an appropriate definition or not. It may well be. But it is not my kind of politics. Revolutionary politics are the only worthwhile politics in my opinion, and within that realm compromise usually represents betrayal. Mon, 04 May 2009 17:08:32 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#bc1843f5-88c4-428d-975b-1c608db4f009 Steven 2009-05-04T17:08:32Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#1bd80e82-1438-4220-a750-5847a8042d17 It's dreadfully boring to contemplate yet again trying to explain to some staunch opponent of rationality that yes, it's possible you have A) failed to understand terms (IE Anarchism is neither what you nor the authors of your chosen rhetorical flubs have assumed), B) accepted propaganda from people who share the ignorant prejudice against the notion that rulers are not required nor even indicated for the preservation of peaceful community and structured society, C) participated nicely in an anarchistic society, in which you, unprompted, have freely expressed yourself without fearing the consequences of doing so D) made absurd and baseless statements and expect them to be treated as fact despite your relative lack of study and understanding of the terms involved in your polemic. In that you provide spurious and irrelevant commentary from similarly unenlightened sources, you provide no actual argument to confront - only a reminder that, yes, most people are craven and worthless when presented with the idea that they are each individually responsible for the content of their lives and the product of their industry. The association of social anarchism with nihilism - another essential and natural concept the ignorant fear without reason or review - renders the source you rely on for corroboration of your polemic against phantoms 100% silly. Mon, 04 May 2009 16:53:26 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#1bd80e82-1438-4220-a750-5847a8042d17 Lokifreign 2009-05-04T16:53:26Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#32dddfdd-6d9f-4bdb-87e9-1c4b6e3f773b *Here is a nice study on the old world thinking, "What Was Wrong With the Old World" by Rose Wilder Lane: Excerpts: "In order to live in communism, it is necessary only that a number of men and women believe two facts and one fallacy; that all men are equal, that all men are brothers — and that an intangible Authority controls individuals." which means, as long as people beleive in a "god" outside of themselves that controls them, then they shall never be free either. http://mises.org/story/2300#2 "Every human being, by his nature, is free; he controls himself. But in the Old World, men believe that some Authority controls them. They cannot make their energy work by any such belief, because the belief is false. But they do not question the belief, because when they submit to a living Authority's control, and cannot get food, they can always blame that Authority. This is what they have always done. The history of every group of men who ever obeyed a living Authority is a history of revolts against all forms of that Government. Look at any available records of any people, living anywhere at any time in the whole history of the Old World. They revolt against their King, and replace him by another King; they revolt against him, and set up another King. In time they revolt against monarchy; they set up another kind of living Authority. For generations or centuries, they revolt and change these rulers; then they revolt against that kind of Authority, and set up another kind. From Nebuchadnezzar to Hitler, history is one long record of revolts against certain living rulers, and revolt against kinds of living Authority. 'For 6,000 years most men have been hungry. Many of them have always been dying of hunger.' When these revolts succeed, they are called revolutions. But they are revolutions only in the sense that a wheel's turning is a revolution. An Old World revolution is only a movement around a motionless center; it never breaks out of the circle. Firm in the center is belief in Authority. No more than the Communist or the National Socialist (Nazi) today, has any Old World revolutionist ever questioned that belief; they all take it for granted that some Authority controls individuals. They replace the priest by a king, the king by an oligarchy, the oligarchs by a despot, the despot by an aristocracy, the aristocrats by a majority, the majority by a tyrant, the tyrant by oligarchs, the oligarchs by aristocrats, the aristocrats by a king, the king by a parliament, the parliament by a dictator, the dictator by a king, the king by — there's six thousand years of it, in every language. Every imaginable kind of living Authority has been tried, and is still being tried somewhere on earth now. All these kinds have been tried, too, in every possible combination; the priest and the king, the king who is the priest, the king who is God, the king and a senate, the king and the senate and a majority, the senate and a tyrant, the tyrant and the aristocrats, a king and a parliament — Try to think of a combination; somewhere it has been tried." http://mises.org/story/2300#3 The Pagan Faith : http://mises.org/story/2300#1 "For six thousand years at least, a majority has generally believed in pagan gods. A pagan god, whatever it is called, is an Authority which (men believe) controls the energy, the acts, and therefore the fate of all individuals. The pagan view of the universe is that it is static, motionless, limited, and controlled by an Authority. The pagan view of man is that all individuals are, and by their nature should and must be, controlled by some Authority outside themselves." "Men do not remain babies all their lives. They grow up. A time comes when every normal man is a responsible human being. His energy creates a part of the whole human world of his time. He is free; he is self-controlling and responsible, because he generates his energy and controls it. No one and nothing else can control it. Nevertheless, during some six thousand years of the Old World's history, a majority of men have believed that some Authority controlled them." ~~End of Excerpt~~ Thu, 30 Apr 2009 00:00:42 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#32dddfdd-6d9f-4bdb-87e9-1c4b6e3f773b Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-04-30T00:00:42Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#14613137-b6f3-4943-80b0-1668c683da19 Egalitarianism? lol, you sound just like those guys who favor communitarianism. "Egalitarianism can be formulated with a variety of roles in mind. For example, an egalitarian norm might be proposed as a fundamental moral principle. As such, it would be intended as a statement of the ultimate norm (or as a member of the set of ultimate norms) to which individual conduct and institutional arrangements ought to conform. " http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/egalitarianism/ to conform to the social norm, no, that is just another form of (social)control and enslavement, no better than the governments of the world we have today. to treat everyone the same, sounds alot like that bland stagnant black and white view of communism. True Anarchism would mean to become your own leader, your own self-internal governance, your own god, your own master and pupil at the very same time, you must become everything. why should anyone force another to be "normal", what is normal in the first place? normalcy is completely a subjective view, there is no such thing as "normal". also, this egalitarian view means that the individual must accept things hat the society believes is absolute, when in reality there are no absolutes. even the monetary view is horrible, why should people have to have a monetary system, tell me, if this is what you believe Anarchism to be, why does it resemble the current oppressive systems? and to be truly free and able to operate in the true state of Anarchism, you must gain much self-awareness. one of the most important keys is self-knowledge, it all starts from within, if one truly wishes to transform the world outside of himself, one must come to the realization of ones true "I".and in order to be in this state of mind, you must aspire and strive to "Know Thyself" completely if you are to ever expect to act in right action: *these are all great blogs from a good friend of mine; Know Thyself : http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=2065889&blogID=440257589 in order to gain self-knowledge, one must get rid of the trash up here in the mind, and overcome the buffers and conditionings that have been set there by society to block your consciousness from spiraling out into infinity: Buffers, Conscience, Morality : http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=2065889&blogID=423411324 Reflections - The Importance of Self-Work : http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=2065889&blogId=470425010 Wed, 29 Apr 2009 23:50:18 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#14613137-b6f3-4943-80b0-1668c683da19 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-04-29T23:50:18Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#8c48a552-8c00-4be8-bfb3-444517d46578 Semantics. Read the discussions in both links that have been provided, then if you have a problem with what i have spoken on, then we can discuss further. Wed, 29 Apr 2009 23:32:09 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#8c48a552-8c00-4be8-bfb3-444517d46578 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-04-29T23:32:09Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#4332dc7a-bf1c-4251-8636-184ca0a60c6d I think there is some confusion of terms. Social Anarchism sometimes means socialist Anarchism, which I am a proponent of. Otherwise it can mean 'lifestyle Anarchism' where you have kids who wants to thumb their nose at authority and live dangerously without actually taking steps to reform or abolish the system collectively. I dont necessarily think its wrong to be a train hoping scenster, but ideally I would like more than that. Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:52:14 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#4332dc7a-bf1c-4251-8636-184ca0a60c6d Djinn 2009-04-29T17:52:14Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#3d22912e-338a-407c-b8dd-65e0e38ee05c "Obviously social anarchism can not be applied in a society in any real way without it setting up extreme violent and failed structures. Meh. I'd prefer to think of social anarchism as egalitarianism. All parts of the whole are necessary and vital. No one is more important than the other, imperfect and illegitimate power structures are either abolished or reestablished on a level playing field. The abuse happens when people twist that to mean, and this escapes me personally, that if we're all equal and you don't have to answer to anyone, you can do whatever the hell you want. Anarchy is the abolishment of unnatural illegitimate power structures -hierarchies, generally. Politics and society are twisted so tightly together that there is really no clear line of definition between them. Let's not forget a definition of politics is 'the give and take that helps us all get along,' or 'the art of compromise.' All relationships are political on some level, aren't they? It feels like you tried to draw a line and say this is 'us' and that is 'them.' J Wed, 29 Apr 2009 17:13:10 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#3d22912e-338a-407c-b8dd-65e0e38ee05c Jelly 2009-04-29T17:13:10Z http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#e170b431-af9e-4d49-84c4-fa0f09a1e817 This is to clarify and help those of you who are still confused about Anarchy, here are the basics: "Ever reviled, accursed, ne'er understood, Thou art the grisly terror of our age. "Wreck of all order," cry the multitude, "Art thou, & war & murder's endless rage." 0, let them cry. To them that ne'er have striven The 'truth that lies behind a word to find, To them the word's right meaning was not given. They shall continue blind among the blind. But thou, O word, so clear, so strong, so true, Thou sayest all which I for goal have taken. I give thee to the future! Thine secure When each at least unto himself shall waken. Comes it in sunshine? In the tempest's thrill? I cannot tell - but it the earth shall see! I am an Anarchist! Wherefore I will Not rule, & also ruled I will not be! " ~John Henry Mackay~ http://2012.tribe.net/thread/20f6baa5-f0cf-491a-b57c-7ed58ca100ad *There are great discussions in the link provided above that will clear things up more after the reader has understood the basics. now, here is a link to a discussion specifically on this subject of Anarchism, one will find that it clarifies further on what we have been trying to expound: http://2012.tribe.net/thread/20f6baa5-f0cf-491a-b57c-7ed58ca100ad *A great summarized explanation about Anarchism and the FAQ's provided in the first thread about the basics, from a good Friend : "Infoshop has the best FAQ work on the subject possible, but it's draw back is that you can't get a good ideal of anarchism from it quickly. Infoshop FAQ is geared for the new anarchist that wants to sit down and really study in length, where as the Question Everything page and the anarchist leaflet is for those that have no introduction to anarchism at all. The Question Everything page is serves a good purpose other than an introduction too - it clarifies the most basic questions that people need answered before they can relax enough to study the Infoshop FAQ. Who can concentrate on hundreds of pages about hard core political change and human rights if they are still thinking this is JUST about "not wanting to follow the rules and co-operate within a society" as portrayed by the current system (and the social anarchist's)? Also whenever speaking about anarchism you ALWAYS run up against one basic confusion, the massive difference between political anarchism and social anarchism (which is roughly nihilism). Nothing has caused more confusion about political anarchism (libertarian-socialism) than social anarchism. They are both lumped under one heading, but are radically different. Probably the easiest way to understand social anarchism is to picture the Sex Pistols and that attitude of *uck everyone - others DON'T matter etc. On the other hand you have The Clash that were political (at least Joe Strummer)..... But I digress. Political anarchism is not about a loss of order and chaos etc - it is more complicated than all those generalities. It seeks to break down external conventions of power that prevent the individual from self representation WITHIN society. It also very much focus's on co-operation and direct democracy within society in order to see that everyone is helped, listened to and respected. None of this s*it like with our present day external mobsters and corporate investors running the show without the people. The people have the "power" with political anarchism - no pyramid structures of oppression are protected. It's also important to mention that a lack of oppression structures is not the same as giving violence towards children and others free reign. Within a co-operative society personal rights do NOT extend to violation of another. So the term oppression is something that needs careful understanding in order to understand anarchism.. Social anarchist's define oppression as anything that prevents them from acting like ass's. Political anarchist's are careful to define oppression and likewise can easily spot when authentic oppression is occurring.. Anyway, that does not provide any condensed information about the differences between the two camps, I just wanted to say that the two camps are distinctly different. However I will add this - Obviously social anarchism can not be applied in a society in any real way without it setting up extreme violent and failed structures. This is NOT what the political anarchist's want at all, and they certainly don't believe in chaos. The ONLY thing that might be remotely attributed to the political's "wanting chaos" is that they ARE more than willing to fight a CLASS WAR in order to bring down the structures of oppression. But their views on society are all about community, mutual aid and co-operation, direct and consensus democracy (much like the religious Quakers even). Along a different note, "hippie passivity" is also all good and well except they that also stand by and allow madmen to rule the world. 30,000 children die every day because people have not learned to stand up and protect them! In the meantime there is a war already in progress." Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:35:00 GMT http://anarchism.tribe.net/thread/10b30c8e-fd3d-48bf-8854-ed10e0e62ecf#e170b431-af9e-4d49-84c4-fa0f09a1e817 Wild Fire(~EK ONKAR, ASHABD, ANAAM~) 2009-04-28T11:35:00Z